to plan our visit around SIL

[cjt110]

Christmas.

SIL lives abroad and comes over with her kids and husband for approx 3 weeks and stays at MILs. We live 150 miles away and travel down. On the last 2 occasions we have stayed at a hotel because - and I quote - there is no room at the Inn.

It costs us approx £120 to £150 for a 2 night stay (£40 diesel, £60 hotel, £20 breakfast plus on one occasion we had to buy our own tea as they had dinner early).

PIL live in a 3 bed house. SIL takes up 2 spare rooms with her, her husband and the 2 children (aged 2 and 4). The room SIL stays in is big enough to "house" all 4 of them. We were suggested before "Oh just sleep on the living room floor. So we would have to wait until all go to bed, having our DS (13m) disrupted in a cot in the lounge and get up at the crack of dawn when everyone else gets up. When we went last time, SIL was particularly rude to me on a few occasions even causing raised eyebrows from MIL (who didnt say a word).

We have decided we will go down either before/after SIL visits. When we went last time, not only was she rude to me, she barely spoke a word to either of us, let her kids run riot (eg. allowing her duaghter to rifile through my handbag and run around with a steak knife in her hand - stating "Oh zipping your bag up wont stop her" No, but you moving your child and telling her not to will.

Anything I post on facebook always gets neagtive/sarky comments from her. Two recent examples, I posted a funny video of son running/walking in his walker and she commented with "I don't like walkers. Neither of my two children had them. I think they're ugly" Not adding anything to the video or anything of value. I put a status up about how after emptying a box of duplo onto the floor, that my son had tidied up each and every piece into the box. She then commented with "It wont last. Kids arent tidy" I replied with well maybe it won't but encouraging him to do it seems to work as he has been doing it more and more" Her reply was Nah. Wont last.

At christmas gone, we bought her a salt and pepper set in the shape of Mickey and Minnie Mouse. She likes Disney. We had thought about what to get her and she just went oh thanks/. Probably won't use them so I'll just sell them on ebay WTAF! She got us presents that were clearly unthought about. I asked people not to get me smellies etc as I didnt use any that were bought for me the year before and she got me a showergel - not even a set, just a single showergel and a cheap £1 diary and got DH a keyring. I dont care of the amount, it's the degree of thought that goes into a gift. There were none in those gifts. She had the cheek to ask DH should she keep an eye out for the postman when it was her birthday - she NEVER sends him a birthday card.

AIBU to avoid when she is there? We get no joy from seeing her. She doesn't interact with us when we are there and it just feels awkward trying to be polite and civil when I get more conversation and enjoyment from a plant.

French - i don't have a different notion of parenting. I have exactly the same notion of boundaries and parenting as most people (i suspect). Sadly my dc didn't get that memo tho, and apart from, well i don't know what, beating them maybe? then none of the 'normal' methods of getting them to do as they are told or sleep alone has worked. But yes you're right describing children as 'little shits' is just fine.

It costs us approx £120 to £150 for a 2 night stay
Presumably though your SIL has the cost of flying 4 of them home for Christmas so it's not as though it's not costing her anything either.

It sounds miserable - who wants to spend Christmas in a shit hotel either.
Just say that you are spending Christmas in the comfort of your own home this year and they are welcome to come and stay for NYE if you can bear it and have the space Job done.

Is it an option to stay with your BIL who lives locally?

I don't always have the easiest relationship with my PIL, and one of the other DILs has effectively decided on no-contact. From her experience I have decided to always be clear about what I want, and actually it has worked well. So I would be a bit more honest with your MIL, and say that you resent the expense of the hotel and the lack of cooking facilities at the hotel and feeling squeezed out. I maybe wouldn't say you find SIL and her child-rearing difficult (is that maybe not why a different space could be useful too?). I'd also have a look at Air bnb and also ask your PIL whether they have any friends who go away at that time whose house you could use for one or two nights. Could you think more laterally about sleeping - I do understand if you are away for 2 or 3 weeks you don't want to share with your kids all the time. Maybe for one weekend it would be OK however, or maybe all the kids could go in together and you and your DH go in the living room. I'd suggest a no presents rule, at least for adults and maybe for kids too.

Perhaps PILs don't want you all in the house at the same time even if you would all fit?

Of course it would be nice of her to offer to have the kids in with her so that you could stay there.

Can see why she doesn't do it for three weeks though.

At the end of the day you don't want to stay if you can't have a room & you don't want to pay for a hotel, so it's not happening, is it?

Actually I think you should maybe go a bit beyond 'wanting to have Christmas at home this year'. I would think about 'now we have DS, it's time to create our own family Christmas traditions'. Because this will get you out of next year too.

Your MIL will try to counter you, so have responses ready.

MIL: But we're looking forward to having you.
You: Oh MIL, you can't have us, remember, 'there's no room at the inn', your very words!

MIL: If it's the cost of the hotel room, there's always our living room floor.
You: Well the cost is a pain, but not as much as sleeping on a floor.

MIL: But you won't get to see SIL, she so looks forward to seeing you.
You: Really? She hides that well!

I'm sure you see the pattern. Make light of it. Nothing is harder to counter than someone who is so decided, all suggestions are treated lightly and dismissively, because THE DECISION HAS BEEN MADE.

Have a lovely Christmas, creating your own traditions which do not involve SIL, oh no ...

If they call your bluff, say airily "You'll have to sleep on the floor, of course; do you have a blow-up mattress, as we don't have one? Or there's quite a nice hotel down the road..."

That'll put them off.

I'm afraid I'm with Mrs Koala, in that OP doesn't sound the warmest of people either. Boasting about dc on FB is bound to get someone's goat. Most people don't post negative comments, but boy, do they think them.

And OP says, "I asked people not to get me smellies etc as I didnt use any that were bought for me the year before." A bit blunt! And the Disney salt & pepper, hmm, it sounds a bit sneery .

Surely the best thing is for the dh to visit by himself for a couple of days (not Christmas Day, obviously). Then he could stay on sitting room floor and not spent out on a hotel, and OP avoids seeing sil and her dcs.

You just don't like each other, so don't bother.

What does your DH think about all this?
Can he go alone?

Would you invite them to stay with you (or in a hotel near you) for a night instead? (in the knowledge that they almost certainly wont accept)

I wouldn't bother with going.

bettyberry Good suggestion. I like that idea.

MrsKoala I appreciate your reply, however, not my problem if their child is naughty and mine is good. To me, if your child is misbehaving even after someone has moved said item and the child continues to try and climb furniture to reach it, then thats bad parenting to leave them to it. As well as allowing a (then) 2 year old to run around with a steak knife in their hand.

As OfaFrenchmind2 said, your parenting notion is different. I think perhaps though it is in the minority. As well as your opinion on this thread seems to be. Hardly smug when you are just posting about something your child did. She has no obligation to respond or even read. As said above, not my problem your children are naughty and mine arent. Not that he isnt from time to time. But I dont take his misbehaving out on someone else who is posting something about their child. Not surprised you don't visit many people if you have that kind of negativity towards peoples children.

Sushi to put a little bit of light onto it, I dont see the cosuins not seeing each other being all that big a deal as they live in foreign countries from one another and SILs children dont even speak English! I know that seems petty but at most, he would see them once a year. No kind of bond can arise from that I wouldnt think but I do see, and take on board, your point.

cjt110, I totally agree with bettyberry. Visit the PIL before Christmas, and before SIL and her family, so that you can actually stay with PIL. Have a 'mini Christmas' with them, and leave presents there for SIL and family as well. Don't worry over what to give her, a bottle of booze as a token will do.

How you explain why you won't be going for Christmas is entirely up to you, but it is quite reasonable not to want to travel if you want to stay at home. It doesn't seem as if the PIL are particularly bothered, so it remains to be seen if they will accept the visit before Christmas. However their treatment of DH is awful, and it is very unfair that you as a family have to make all the effort to see them. I think it would be good to break away from the habit of always going there, and start your own traditions at home. Start to spend more time with people who value you all.

I just wonder how people like that manage to go through life being so rude and upsetting everyone and nothing is said. Somehow having friends and family around them despite horribleness. While loads of lovely people on here seem to struggle and have cruel family and thoughtless friends ,(or no friends to speak of). Reading mumsnet is such an eye opener on the unfairness of life.

Sounds awful. I wouldnt put myself through it. I think you probably get worked up just thinking of going! Badly behaved kids are one thing, parents who chose to ignore the bad behaviour is completely different..,

TreadSoftlyOnMyDreams If I recall correctly, her parents usually pay for her flights then her food etc when she is here. And BIl - sadly not, they live in a 3 bed house with 2 kids.

I would really like for us to see PIL and for my son to spend time with them - afterall he's seen them 4/5 times in his 13m life - only twice of which was them coming to see us. They have made it quite clear in their actions that we (as in our trio family) come well down the pecking order and I find this hard for my son and my husband. I couldnt give a fig for myself. They are nice people but not someone that I'd chose to visit of my own accord. Some examples of how they appear to show how low down the order my son is getting the other 3 GC easter eggs. He got nothing. Cant blame distance as MIL posted 2GCs to them in a foreign country. She also suggested DS called her Nanny whilst the other 3 call her Grandma, so that "he doesn't get confused" as he calls my mum who he sees almost daily Grandma.

I just feel so helpless for my son and husband that they dont seem to feature so much in the PILs lives. I also don't want to segregate us from the family, but we seem to get nothing out of it half the time.

Well he wouldn't have been very old atEaster would he?

And a lot have kids call one GM Grandma & the other Nanny, so I wouldn't read too much into those things & be looking for slights where there are none.

But you know, if they aren't bothered about your son you can't force it & tbh I'd take the lead from your husband re visits.

diddl he was 8/9m And it's the principle of the matter. You buy for one, you buy for all. My point was 3 GC calling her Grandma, and him being ASKED to call her different. One real way to make him feel different.

To me you've written a long list of fairly minor issues, made some equally nasty sneers comments about her and worse about her children. I wonder what she would say about you.

You just don't like her and don't want to be around her. It's fine to feel like that, just own it instead of listing a ton of petty things and being horrendous about her DC.

I would just stick with making your own traditions. I'd also customise the Facebook posts so they can't see them.

Dh's SIL had it in for my Dd. Her horrible behaviour resulted in 6 years of no contact. We'd get thoughtless gifts too... Who buys a teetotaller alcohol?

diddl just because he would be 6-ish months old doesn't mean the grandparents couldn't have acknowledged him with a stuffed bunny or similar!

I would be miffed if everyone else was thought of and my DC ignore (and yes, it has happened a few times to us!)

as for the name of grandma and nanny. Surely that is up to the child to decide? if the other Gkids say grandma then the child will copy and say grandma.

To a child it will be glaringly obvious Cousin A can call her grandma but why can't I? why does she insist I call her nanny? The child will notice that he is treated differently from cousins.

my own calls both great gran and gran (my mother) 'nanny' always has and yes, he notices the different ways he is treated compared to his cousins too. From not being bought a birthday gift to being the only one not to have been taken on holiday by his nanny. He notices, he feels it.

I'm with Mrs koala here.

While I understand that your SIL might not like you, I suspect that you may also be giving off pretty massive 'don't like you' or judgemental vibes to her. It is not on to describe her children as little shits. It's also pretty rubbish to crow about your well-behaved child in comparison with hers.

My children are also what's thought of as being good. They are naturally quite compliant and keen to please. I'm not convinced that this is anything but good luck.

Re: Christmas - definitely stay at home, and just ride out any guilt tripping. I really think that staying in an hotel over Christmas is going above and beyond, especially when you have a young DC.

(So while I dislike the little shits labelling, and can see that there's mutual antipathy here I think that it's a good idea to have a Christmas that will make you and your dh happiest. It's horrendous to feel like you've been squeezed out in the way your dh appears to have been. It will be raw for him, so gently does it - I feel for him).

"While I understand that your SIL might not like you, I suspect that you may also be giving off pretty massive 'don't like you' or judgemental vibes to her."

I agree with this. I imagine that you don't do much to hide your disdain around her which probably isn't helping matters.

My negativity on others children? That's rich, I'm not the one charmingly calling children 'little shits'. I said the comments were rude. I also would never have made them myself - however on bad days i can see how someone would and as everyone i know on FB would know of the 'LS' status of my dc i would probably imagine they may just generously think 'oh poor MrsK, she does have LS's tho so it's understandable she has a negative outlook on kids sometimes'. Given that you know what her dc are like wouldn't it be kinder to view her comments like that?

It's also not my fault my children are 'naughty' just as i doubt it's just down to parenting that your children are 'good'. It's the luck of the draw ime.

As i said above i'm pretty sure my notion of parenting is the same as everyone elses, but there's only so much you can do to instil it in your dc. I only visit my parents because I know that my children will behave the way they behave, regardless of what i do, and no one else will understand. I have walked home sobbing after being asked to leave enough toddler groups to know it simply isn't fair to put them in that situation and expect them to behave well. It's setting them up to fail. However, i would hope that when visiting my parents I am free from judgement from family members.

Personally I would have asked you to move the bag to a room they couldn't get to it. I would not want to spend the entire time telling my dc no and being kicked in the face when i try to pull them off the furniture. That's hardly a nice visit for anyone.

I agree with Diddl, you don't like each other so just don't go. And say why. I also wouldn't be near me and my children if i didn't have to be! I hope you have a nice xmas whatever you do.

after all he's seen them 4/5 times in his 13m life

Ho hum - I'm going to bow out here as I don't think my parents have seen their grandkids any more than that in the past 5 yrs. 4-5 time in a year sounds like loads to me especially in the early months when you really don't want to go anywhere with them.

PILs are close [as in frequent visitors] to their son who lives locally [understandable]
SIL comes home once a year with her kids. She's quite possibly a bit resentful that she can't have a quiet Christmas with her parents. Who knows.

The Grandma/Nanny thing - sounds like a perfectly reasonable solution to a GP who doesn't know if a GC is talking about her or not and is trying to reduce confusion. I don't think it was meant to ostracize the child.

Clearly there's a back history but to me you are sounding a little oversensitive on your husband and child's behalf. But I accept that I don't have a close relationship with my parents and I am thrilled that I am not expected to visit every weekend like many on MN. I have siblings who are closer to them in every respect and it doesn't bother me at all to be honest.
A nice chilled Christmas without parents and inlaws [and lots of our own friends instead] sounds bliss to me.

I know that what the PILs did wasn't good, was just trying to say that they might not have been deliberately thought out snubs.

It's sad for your husband & son that they care more about his sibling & other GC, so if that's the case, just stop putting the effort in.

See them when you want on your terms-ie minimal effort to yourselves!

I do know what it's like to have ILs who aren't interested enough in their GC to actually make the effort-the difference being that OH is an only & we have their only GC!