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Woman on bus being very unhelpful (maybe sensitive) (thread title amended by MNHQ}

187 replies

DirtyMugPolice · 25/09/2015 19:20

I'm 7 months pregnant and look it - a lady on the bus moved her shopping trolley thing for me so I could sit down. Lovely. She then proceeded to tell me about her grandson who died while being born as he was grabbed in the wrong place with forceps. My eyes welled up and then she got off the bus.

What. The. Fuck. Why would you tell a pregnant woman a story about a dead baby?!

OP posts:
WatchWithMerlot · 26/09/2015 10:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

KourtneyK · 26/09/2015 11:05

As always, some people on MN has limited amounts of empathy and can only share it for one party. I feel empathy for both the OP who was obviously shocked and the grandmother who lost her grandchild. It's not either or and I don't feel the need to make nasty comments about either of them. Some of the comments aimed towards the woman on the bus are really quite revolting and say more about those who said it. Perhaps she doesn't have warped social skills or likes to share her "juicy story", perhaps she blurted it out and now feels mortified. The OP later realised she was wrong for the horrid language she used in her opening post. Maybe, just maybe, the grandmother in question feels the same way. She can't defend herself though.

KourtneyK · 26/09/2015 11:05

^^ oy, please ignore the glaring SPaG errors!

Siennasun · 26/09/2015 11:11

I think it's fine to talk about your birth experience, positive or negative, IF you are asked. I know when I was pregnant people bombarded me with their uninvited graphic descriptions of birth-related pain and injuries. At the end of one particular lunch time at work I had to go sit in the toilets for a while to recover. As it turned out I had a lovely birth experience (EMCS) and I always tell people this if I they ask. People are different - some want to be prepared and know everything that could possibly go wrong, others just go with the flow.

I think the OP is a very different situation. If it had happened to me I would have done what the OP did (apart from starting this thread) ie felt very upset but said something like "sorry for your loss". I would feel sad but not angry. For OP, however upsetting it's just a sad story, for the bus woman her grandchild died. The lack of empathy on this thread for a bereaved grandma is so depressing.
Sad

PrinceHansOfTheTescoAisles · 26/09/2015 11:28

It is inappropriate though to launch into a story like that unprovoked or unprompted. An earlier poster mentioned telling a pg woman about her mc when the woman was getting at her for "lagging behind". That was entirely justified and saved them both future pain. The old lady on the bus was just overstepping a line - obviously because she's still grieving but still it was over a line. I lost my FIL last year, beloved grandfather to my kids but I wouldn't go up to a happily playing child and grandad in the park and tell them that my child no longer has his. It's just not reasonable behaviour.

TenForward82 · 26/09/2015 11:28

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ShowOfHands · 26/09/2015 11:29

WatchWithMerlot (superb username btw), thank you. I'm not sure about eloquent, maybe rambling but you're very kind.

I think it's like a lot of things in life, we've just fetishized the narrative (for want of a better way of describing it). It's symptomatic of modern life I think. Childbirth has fallen into this false dichotomy of positive vs negative, intervention free vs intervention, home vs hospital, midwife vs consultant and what we've done is failed to recognise that these reductive scenarios are meaningless in real life.

I am a bit of a hippy tbh and absolutely embrace the notion of instinct, trust and mindfulness where your body is concerned but I think in retrospect, I've got it a bit wrong in the past. I speak as somebody who planned a home water birth and ended up with an emcs and I was very unhappy about this for a while. It wasn't because the emcs was traumatic (though sometimes they are and again, that's still not a horror story, just mere fact) but because I myself had built up this notion of ideal birth and of course reality didn't live up to it. Ironically, what I actually did was the opposite of what I claimed to believe in. Listening to my body, using instinct etc meant that I knew, I absolutely knew something wasn't right but I didn't listen and transfer in and accept good, brilliant, marvellous intervention which ensured the health of me and my baby, I became terrified and resistant and I created the most untenable situation. I was frightened but of the wrong thing. I was frightened of intervention instead of mindful of the rare but very real possibilities of childbirth when it doesn't go to plan. If I'd approached it more pragmatically, the intervention would have fallen firmly on the side of the positive, surely? It's there to prevent the things we actually have cause to fear.

I of course say all of this with a complete acceptance that there is also a very strong argument to suggest that birth can be over medicalised and we have moved away from empowering women to know their own bodies. However, as a counter to this, we've introduced a new element of fear, almost a trope whereby we are all told that the horror lies in the wrong places. And we become cowed by it and we shut down discussion and we come to believe that it's black and white. Human experience can't ever work like that. We can't tell a woman that x is negative because where x is a lifesaving intervention, we're ensuring her feelings about that are negative too.

It does all feed into the way we approach neonatal mortality too. Because our discussions and our fears around educating on childbirth are centred on what we want, what we don't want, what we falsely believe to be good or bad. What we don't do is deal very well with the absolute truths. So when that devastating, absolute becomes your reality, you want to scream and shout about it, you want people to know, you wish you'd known, you wish you could turn back the clock. What you spend a lot of time doing post that tragedy is trying your utmost to change the narrative, to prevent it happening again. One of the big fights is that false dichotomy which permeates all of it. I think most of us where childbirth is concerned, where babies are concerned, are very lucky to be able to adopt an attitude of 'well it's extremely unlikely to happen to me' and you force this division of them (the unlucky few) and us (the 'norm' who are protected from the potential of devastation by trust in statistics). What we need to do instead I suppose is move towards an acceptance of the reality of it. It could happen to any of us (whether that is a cs or a stillbirth, rarity is not a factor) but actually, here's what we can do to make the truly negative outcomes less likely. That's it isn't it? Here's what we know and here's what we can DO. Instead of painting this picture of good vs bad and positioning yourself on that spectrum. It's a one way street. Any one of us could move from the one to the other and that's where the real 'horror story' might lie. When a very large number of us will have non-textbook births for whatever reason, you narrow the space you can occupy on that spectrum. It's not good vs bad. It's 'here's the range of experiences in childbirth and you can feel negative or positive about most of it. The absolutes are tiny.

Oh I'm rambling again. Am I making any sense?

feebeecat · 26/09/2015 11:32

KourtneyK I think you raise a valid point there. While I was pregnant with twins I had four, that's four people come up and tell me that they were a twin/had twins/had twin siblings but one died. One was a friend of my mum, who later told her she had no idea while she blurted it out & apologised - she was mortified. Another was someone I worked with, who also told me I'd never cope with two - thank you. And the other two were total strangers in a supermarket. Like OP the first time I was completely shocked and just stood there saying "oh". I think I sort of got used to it, had my stock sympathy response ready and moved on. Think when you're pregnant you/your bump becomes some sort of trigger and people do like to share - recalling first visit from mil after dts were born - conversation was just about 'her births' from 30 and 40 years previous Hmm

OP I think you've had a bit of a harsh response on here - it is a shock the first time someone says this to you. But equally she could be mortified at what she'd said. My mum always said don't put down to malice what could be stupidity. Hope you are feeling better now.

Can I just throw in comment from my lovely, do anything for anyone sil, having asked if I'd written my birth plan yet, she quickly followed up with "although I suppose there's no point as they'll be premature and you'll end up having an emergency C-section". Smile & nod. I went onto 36+3 and gave birth naturally, to two fine girls, just to spite her Wink

Good luck with the rest of your pregnancy Flowers

MarshaBrady · 26/09/2015 11:34

It does Show.

I haven't found the posts showing more empathy for the woman aggressive, quite the opposite in fact.

ScrappyMalloy · 26/09/2015 11:36

BUt, for me, as a bereaved parent, I personally find it unhelpful if society thinks I am a ticking time bomb, about to spill details of my loss to all and sundry, and random pregnant women on the bus. It sets me apart from other people, makes me 'otherly' somehow.

MarshaBrady · 26/09/2015 11:40

It all works hard to separate, including the language people use. Who wants to feel so outside and yes 'other'? No one. So it's sadness in top of that too.

ShowOfHands · 26/09/2015 11:44

Sometimes, as a bereaved parent you also can't talk about any of the positive stuff. My lovely friend lost her twins not too long after birth but she feels she can't talk about the birth or the cuddles or the joy of holding them or the pregnancy or any of it because she's got this big sign hanging over her. So she found herself in a situation where she only talked about her babies to other bereaved Mums and that was hard for her as well because everything about their memories was part of a club she never asked to join.

Siennasun · 26/09/2015 11:45

The pedants on here are fucking ridiculous

pedants what an odd choice of word. Who's being a pedant? If you have a valid point you really should be able to make it without resorting to insults.

I haven't got a problem with the OP at all, I would have felt and said the same as her.
I have got a problem with the horrible comments about the grandma. Her comment was thoughtless but it wasn't SELFISH or CRUEL. That implies that her comments were malicious and intended to hurt OP's, which is very unlikely.

ScrappyMalloy · 26/09/2015 11:47

I AM a part if society, and no more likely to terrify pregnant women with my son's death, than I would scare anyone else who was experiencing illness in their family, with stories of death in similar circumstances in my experience.

Hygge · 26/09/2015 11:51

"The pedants on here are fucking ridiculous.

Yes, it is horrific you lost a child. Yes, of COURSE we have sympathy for that, we're not fucking monsters.

Yes, your grief is an all-consuming terrible, awful thing, we get that. BUT that does not give you license to share that grief, unsolicited, with someone in a fragile emotional state, who is ALREADY worrying about the health of her child (as all responsible pregnant women do). To do so is SELFISH and CRUEL. To reiterate a PP's example, if someone tells you their mother has cancer, is it acceptable to tell that person about how you lost your mother to cancer is a horrific way, then fuck off out of the conversation? (Tip, for anyone confused, NO IT'S FUCKING NOT.)

All most of the old-lady defenders on here have done is focus on the OP's language, which she used in a time of upset, and has since REPEATEDLY apologised for, but it's not good enough for you. All you've done is show your continued selfishness and narrow-mindedness. Your grief trumphs anybody else's upset or feelings. Very fucking noble.

OP, if you're still here, I wouldn't return. You're not going to get anything sensible from this thread. A lot of us understand how you feel, though."

Ten actually you are coming across here as a fucking monster with no sympathy, to use your own term.

You say you have sympathy for the people who have lost a child and then you post an expletive filled SHOUTY rant at everyone on the thread who has shared their own experience here and raged about how we think our grief trumps anyone else's feelings. Called us selfish and narrow minded.

Very fucking noble of you to do that.

A lot of us bereaved parents also understand how the OP felt. That doesn't mean we can't also tell her that her choice of words was upsetting. Which she has taken on board and accepted, so why do you feel you have to stick the boot in?

AndDeepBreath · 26/09/2015 11:54

Oh Ten. Why is it always you?

BoskyCat · 26/09/2015 11:54

I can see both sides and have some sympathy for her needing to express her grief, BUT it isn't especially appropriate to do so to a stranger (much as she may have wanted to), and to do so to a pregnant woman nearing the birth is pretty selfish IMO.

Yes, she's suffered horribly but I hope most people in her situation would think "this pregnant lady doesn't need to know this, I'll save it for friends/family/DH whatever and talk about how seeing a pregnant woman upset me".

I had several similar incidences while pg though, including several neighbours (who were not closely involved) telling me in detail about how another neighbour lost a baby previous year.

The neighbour in question did tell me about it too, but not until my baby had arrived safely.

There are other examples that I won't regale OP with.

I think it's partly an example of how many people see a pregnant woman and for some reason think they can say/do anything they like.

whattheseithakasmean · 26/09/2015 11:57

TenForward the aggressive, sweary, angry tone of your post is shockingly inappropriate for this sensitive subject.

I agree with other posters that the woman on the bus was unthinking, as was the OP with the wording of her post. The OP has realized she was guilty of the same insensitivity she herself criticized and has apologized. The OP has had her post edited, the woman cannot go back and unsay what she said.

Sadly, I am a member of the bereaved mothers club, so feel only huge understanding and support for the mothers on here who have shared their stories of loss. Please don't swear and get angry at them - that does make you seem like a bit of a 'fucking monster', actually.

Starkswillriseagain · 26/09/2015 12:00

ScrappyMalloy I don't think people would think that. Anyone grieving could be really not ok, they could be ok or could be better then you think. The key is understanding that for some grieving people they may be triggered and react to it, not all but some.

I had no idea I'd be a ticking time bomb until I was triggered, I haven't again towards other people- I've had moments of feeling overwhelming emotion but been okay to do it in private, when I was triggered I was completely overwhelmed and couldn't stop myself. Another friend of mine who is grieving has never felt that way while another constantly feels that way and has isolated herself for a while.

I don't think anyone is suggesting all grieving people could be that way or I'd hope they aren't but that for some it does happen and so it should be something to bear in mind if someone does offload on you. That should be something society should bear in mind if anyone offloads - that something could be hurting/overwhelming them or something could be wrong. They may not, they may be taking pleasure in just upsetting others but the default should be to err on the side of caution.

Realistically though when faced with that, people will react in different ways and not err on the side of caution because it's hard not to have your own emotional response. The woman on the bus may have been grieving and been triggered, in response to that the OP was shocked and upset and aggravated herself. Gut reactions went all around.

Shutthatdoor · 26/09/2015 12:08

ten That is one of the most patronising, rude, unnecessary and hurtful posts I have seen on here in a while and I have been here a long time

AloraRyger · 26/09/2015 12:17

I do agree that the image of bereaved people as ticking time bombs waiting to blurt their stories out to unsuspecting, inappropriate strangers is not helpful. It's akin to the assumption that bereaved mothers are babysnatchers in waiting.

I don't believe that labelling the grandmother as cruel, vile or selfish is helpful either. Of course I could be wrong and she could have been a vicious old hag, rubbing her hands together with glee as she shared this story to frighten someone but I'd rather believe there was no malicious intention behind her actions.

As a society we are bloody weird about death and dying. If we were more open, if we talked about bereavement openly, if it wasn't taboo to talk about our dead children as part of our families, about their births and brief lives, then maybe people wouldn't react with such absolute horror when they are mentioned. I actually had a really smooth, quick and easy birth with dd1 but I very, very rarely mention that, or indeed her any more. Society very much expects me to be over it 10 years on.

HeteronormativeHaybales · 26/09/2015 12:23

TenForward, how very dare you? Angry

To the poster (Dorothea, I think) who suggested that some of us who have defended the bus woman have forgotten what a vulnerable time pregnancy is: I haven't; I'm currently 40+6 weeks pregnant after a total of six losses. I'm all too aware of what a vulnerable time it is. But I like to think that in such a situation, I would not consider my momentary discomfort more important than that woman's enduring loss, which she can't leave behind her by getting off the bus.

sugar21 · 26/09/2015 12:26

I'm another member of the bereaved Mothers club, and I think I can see both sides of the OPs dilemma.
Yes when you are pregnant you don't want to hear about our little angels and I would never tell a pregnant woman my story. I think that the Grandmother was probably speaking of a recent loss and seeing a baby bump stirred up her grief.
My own Mum was in a terrible state when my DD died, but of course I didn't notice as I was and still am knocked sideways.
However, not sure what my Mum said to others. I hope she would have been tactful as she normally is.
For me, if I see a pg woman I will hope that I don't have to engage with her, obviously with friends that's different.
To conclude I'd say there is no right or wrong, I just keep quiet.

TenForward82 · 26/09/2015 12:30

You've all missed the point of my post then. Of course.

hobnobsaremyfavourite · 26/09/2015 12:34

Yes course they all have ten Hmm