To think that if you were REALLY concerned about babies getting the best start...

[jorahmormont]

... you'd focus your efforts on complaining to the government about the lack of support for breastfeeding mothers, and protest against formula companies, rather than wasting energy trying to make formula-feeding mothers feel shit?

This isn't a discussion of FF vs BF. We all know the statistics by now, and we all know that only 2% medically can't BF etc, and that medical reasons aren't the only reasons women can't/choose not to BF, so it's not a debate of that.

It's just to ask... well, AIBU to think that people who do spend their time calling FF mums "artificial feeders" and telling them that they clearly don't love their kids as much and are second-rate mothers (and yes, it does happen - it's happening right now on a certain parenting site) aren't actually bothered about kids getting the best start, but rather making themselves feel superior?

And yes, I know IABU to start a thread about FF vs BF, because it's a stupid sodding debate and people need to stop treating motherhood as a competition. I know IABU to start this thread, please send , I need them right now

Oh now there's a thought. How old do they have to be before you can successfully glue them to an X-box?

We have an ancient PS2 in the cupboard. I wonder...

goes off to rummage

I suppose pain is practically impossible if the latch is right but what baby latches on perfectly each time in the first few days? The baby is learning too.

Also I know some say it's a myth but I do think your nipples need to toughen up.

I'm glad this thread hasn't dissolved into a bunfight :) almost as soon as I posted it I had a sinking feeling of 'ohhhh god what have I done?' but it's good to have a discussion of the support needed.

nicole if, as you said upthread, you don't think more BF support will increase numbers, what do you say to the number of us who have stated on this thread that more support would have helped us to BF? I think if a HCP had come to sit with me, like she sat with the woman in her 30s opposite me, and actually showed me how to hold the baby and checked her for tongue and lip tie (as she does actually have a lip tie), I would have had a much better chance of breastfeeding. As it was, I got 'Hold her like a rugby ball' (well, I like rugby but I don't play it so how the hell do I hold her like a rugby ball?) and 'tongue and lip ties shouldn't affect latch, there's not much point checking'.

One lovely midwife actually came and sat with me, and told me that there were latch issues, and helped me syringe-feed colostrum to DD as I cried. She couldn't sit with me for very long but at least she tried, which is more than anyone else did.

We do need more BF support, and more acceptance of the fact that younger mothers do often want to try. The community midwife I saw first said to me "Now I know you'll probably want to bottle feed, but we do have to recommend breastfeeding for its health benefits". What sort of message does that send to young women wanting to breastfeed their babies? How am I supposed to raise my own daughter to see that breastfeeding is normal, if I've been given the impression that younger mums aren't supposed to breastfeed?

I live in an area with a quickly rising average age for first-time mothers, so the standard of maternity and postnatal care for younger mothers is seriously declining.

After I admitted 'defeat' (the hospital told me I couldn't leave until I either 'sorted out' BFing or gave her formula, so of course I caved in and gave her formula), I was pretty pragmatic about it - "Okay, it didn't work out for this baby, but I'd like to try again". After seeing the sheer amount of shame heaped on women online for not breastfeeding their babies, I started to think "Actually no, I don't want to turn into that sort of person, and if I try and fail again, I'll just feel even worse - I won't even try next time". It's only now, eighteen months on and now we're TTC #2, that I'm starting to think I might try again.

Sorry for the essay. What I'm trying to say is that formula shamers (or 'artificial feeder' shamers, if you're such a big fan of the phrase) don't encourage BFing in any way, shape or form, because that's not their intention. I don't know why they insist on putting FF women down (and vice versa happens, I know that, but I think the reasons for that are a little more clear-cut), but it does nothing to promote BF.

I find it bizarre when I recognise a MN poster getting het up about how someone else feeds their baby, but on another thread is struggling with another aspect of parenting. I would have thought that only a few years of parenting are needed to put the FF/BF decision into perspective as a relatively small aspect of parenting.

Then... re the 98% figure... argh, this is so wrong!

Firstly, if it's taken from cultures where BF is still so much the norm that cross-nursing is commonplace, and the baby's aunts and grandmothers will step in if required then this ought to be removed from those figures, because that is unlikely ever to be acceptable again in our culture, we are too concerned about infection, and consider breasts to be too intimate.

Secondly, if it's "any breastfeeding" then you're not comparing like with like because people usually compare it to "exclusive breastfeeding" rates which are low. UK "any breastfeeding" figures do drop off after initiation, but nowhere near as sharply as "exclusive" do. For "any": 55% at 6 weeks, 34% at 6 months. For exclusive: 6w 23%, 3m 17%, 4m 12%, 6m 1%.

The exclusive figures are really misleading. For one, with a guideline to introduce solids by around 6 months you expect to see a very low EBF figure, because most people don't wait until six months on the day to introduce solid foods.

That said, the early ones are a little concerning because we know that (as a general trend) early introduction of formula tends to lead to shorter BF duration in general. But although "nipple confusion" or "interfering with supply" are usually cited as reasons for this, it's not actually clear if that is what we are seeing the results of in the surveys. I would put my money on it being a combination of things which can be summed up by the phrase "bottle angst" - mixed feeding is not a supported norm, despite it being an actual norm if we are talking about trends. In other words, it becomes a problem because we believe it to be a problem.

I did used to think that exclusive breastfeeding was somehow more desirable, but in fact if you look across the world to cultures where BF is more normalised, and where high BF rates are observed, none of them bother in the slightest about exclusive BF. They cross-nurse, they supplement, they take not a blind bit of notice of the idea of nipple confusion or supply issues, they tend to take it in stride and go with the flow. There are similar results found in BME communities in the USA. When you look closely at it, all of the arguments about exclusive BF being better start to fall apart. I think we need to banish the idea that exclusive is best, because I think (I couldn't prove this, but perhaps somebody else could) that our anxiety over non-exclusive BF is the most likely cause of the problems associated with non-exclusive BF.

Pain is normal in the first few days at least at the start of a feed - yes because nipples need to get used to it, to be frank. The myth part comes in because insane people used to recommend some perfectly bonkers things in order to "toughen up" nipples, which don't work and which are more likely to cause pain than prevent it. Mainly because nipples are not the soles of your feet and don't "toughen" in the same way.

It's a grit your teeth, hold your breath, count to ten and it's gone kind of pain. If it's happening for longer, then the latch needs to be looked at. And then yes, you will of course get pain if your nipple is injured by a bad initial latch, so it is a bit of a myth to say that there will definitely not be any pain. But it's useful to give women the proper information about what type of pain to expect because some poor women will struggle on with painful feeds assuming it's normal, not seeking help because they don't realise it can be helped.

I will never understand why people are so hung up on this.... I didn't breastfeed and don't regret that decision for a second. I really don't give a toss how others feed their children either. As far people sad enough to say things like I must be a rubbish mother on the Internet .... Like I'd take parenting advice from those who have time to talk about this dull subject incessantly and show appalling rudeness to other people. It's like they don't see past the baby years with their own children and forget they have to model decent behaviour.

Ps not meaning anyone on here by the way- this thread is great.

This thread has stirred up a lot of sadness for me.

I gave up breastfeeding both of my dc's after 10 days mainly due to severe nipple pain.

I desperately wanted to feed but I found it so hard. I'm not sure what support could have made me carry on, with ds1 I was offered no support at all my midwife was completely useless and I got so much conflicting advice about how often the baby should fee sand for how long for etc, this was years ago and I had no internet access etc.

By the time I had ds2 I'd read up more on breastfeeding and was determined to give it a go, those first couple of days feeding him were amazing, then the pain started, I might be a wimp but I found it excruciating, my nipples had no skin left on them.

I was advised to break off the latch and try again, but I could do this 10 times and it made no difference and in the end ds would be hysterical. That first week I had 5 different midwives visit to help, they couldn't see anything wrong with the latch but acknowledged that my nipples looked sore and squashed. Naturally ds was wanting to feed every 1.5 hours and I was crying in pain. I ended up expressing into a bottle to let my nipples heal, which won't have helped the latch. I'd put ds back on and within 2-3 feeds I'd be in agony again. I was told to express every 2 hours as well to keep my supply up, I was in pain, exhausted, feverish from engorged lumpy boobs, I had older ds who wasn't getting a second with me and every time ds2 slept we'd get visitors who sit there like lemons for hours hogging any free time. I tried nipple shields, they just felt like my nipples were being bitten but with pieces of plastic.

I felt as though I was just completely confusing the baby, I felt useless, I'd look at him and knew that he deserved better, he just wanted my milk but he was hurting me.

Should I have been more persistent? Yes. Should I have banned visitors, yes. Nobody came and so much as made me a drink or ran the Hoover round, they'd just sit there making comments. In the end I gave up once dp was back at work.

To be fair, ds1 did fantastically on the formula, he was the happiest baby and is completely healthy. Ds2 isn't so good, he didn't react well to the first formula and is suffering with reflux now, I can't be sure it's the formula but I can't be sure it's not.

I feel ashamed that I bottle feed, I miss the bonding of breastfeeding and I'll never get that back now, when I see somebody breastfeeding I'm so jealous and feel like I've failed my dc's.

I'm still completely confused about breastfeeding and it's supposed to be the most natural thing in the world. I'm not sure what could have helped me aside from having somebody with me all the time.

Sorry for the long post

I'm not sure what more support could be offered from the NHS, it's those early hours when you're so tired, so sore and the baby just wants to feed, feed feed.

I think I could almost have done with somebody there to keep the house ticking over, cook for me and look after my older ds while I just solely concentrated on the baby for a few weeks.

I think for some there's pressure to get back to normal, to tidy yourself up for visitors and get out and about, I think that I could have done with a month in bed with the baby.

Obviously some manage it even with older dc's but I really don't know how.

"but in fact if you look across the world to cultures where BF is more normalised, and where high BF rates are observed, none of them bother in the slightest about exclusive BF"

Have you got a reference for this?

In Norway 80% of babies are exclusively breastfed at 6 weeks, and that's in a culture where formula is widely available and affordable.

Lots of other countries here with very high rates of exclusive breastfeeding at 6 months.
here

Exclusive breastfeeding is achievable for most women if they want to do it. It also has benefits for babies. I completely appreciate that most people want to use formula and that's fair enough. But you shouldn't have to justify this choice by rubbishing the benefits of exclusive breastfeeding or implying that it's vanishingly rare and pointless.

Would add that exclusive breastfeeding for six months is a massive life-saver for babies in developing countries with high rates of HIV infection, where mothers can't afford to fully formula feed from birth. Exclusive breastfeeding for six months cuts the rates of vertical transmission to about 2%. This is worth thinking about given that many women in these places won't be diagnosed. Spreading the message that casual formula supplementation is unproblematic and inevitable would be very damaging to people in these communities.

Pyjama it sounds like you had a very stressful painful time :(

I agree with Nicole- if BF is easy enough for you and you're happy to do it why on earth would you add in formula? That just makes life more difficult. I don't believe all these women are mix feeding

I was reasonably lucky with bf support. My ds2 was born six weeks prem and had a bowl obstruction which meant he was drip fed for the first few days and then tube fed for a furthur week. It was very hard to establish bf after ths rocky start but was lucky enough to have support from a bf support person, and managed to keep bf him until he was nine months old. This was abroad though not in the UK !

Just to add, I have big boobs and the best advise I got from the midwife with my first ds was when she showed me what she called 'the rugby hold' where baby was tucked under my arm on a pillow ( rather than across my body). I used this position to go onto feed all four of my babies succesfully, and for me it made latching on so much easier. I was lucky to havea independent midwife who had time to show me these things. She also arrnaged to have a super efficient mechanical breast pump delivered to my home within hours of my breasts becoming painfully engorged. Again, this was abroad. When I returned to the UK and had my other babies there was no support whatsover, although luckily by then I knew what I was doing with the bf.

Pyjama

For what it's worth, my eldest two were FF and I feel just as bonded with them as I do with the DC I'm BFing. I never felt a moment of guilt and when the HV commented "oh, what a shame!" when I tried to BF DC2 and stopped after a couple of weeks I looked her in the face and asked why it was a shame. She couldn't give me an answer and quickly changed the subject.

Also I know some BF babies with reflux, a couple of whom were moved to FF to try and combat it as they needed different milks and medications. FF in itself is not usually a cause of reflux.

There's no shame to be had in FF, large amounts of babies thrive on it.

If I have another DC I will FF, even though I've BF'd youngest for over 18 months. It's not that it hasn't been nice, it's had its positive points, but of the two I think I much prefer the plus sides of FF over the plus sides of BF.

I hope you don't mind the question Stormy but what are the advantages of FF that tips the balance for you?

Thinking about Pyjamas post, I think that there should be a much more organized and consistent approach to checking properly for tongue and lip ties. You can really badly damage your nipples if a tongue tie isn't spotted and you try and put up with the pain.

For me the main advantage is that I don't have to do all the feeds! I get nothing at all when I express, a tiny puff of milk scented dust if I'm lucky, so the onus is on me to do all of the feeds. I love feeding my babies, whether it's with a bottle or a breast

Pressed post too soon. One minute.

I think it's horrible to shame ff parents when ultimately formula is a reasonable way to feed a baby and can be brilliant in some circumstances.

Equally though I've heard vile comments about bf mums, I've heard vile comments about women feeding 3 and 4 year olds, I heard people claiming that you should stop bf once a baby has teeth. I know women who've been pressured to stop bf so that their husbands can bond with the baby, or because the baby 'isn't getting enough', just because the baby is naturally feeding regularly.

I've known quite a few women who wanted to bf but stopped not because they couldn't breastfeed but because they were having difficulties.

Do you blame lack of support or the individual for not persisting?

I formula fed purely because I didnt want to breastfeed. I was an older mum too so was left alone in the hospital. I did however see some of the younger mums be very pressured over this and come over to me in tears. It's no-one else's business - "happy mum, happy baby".

For me the main advantage is that I don't have to do all the feeds! I get nothing at all when I express, a tiny puff of milk scented dust if I'm lucky, so the onus is on me to do all of the feeds. I love feeding my babies, whether it's with a bottle or a breast, and I love that moment when a baby rolls over all fast asleep and milk-drunk but I'd like that to be someone else's responsibility at least once a day. I know DH feels like he's missed out on that this time around as DS wouldn't even entertain a bottle from around two weeks old onwards when I stopped giving him a formula top up once a day, DH says he'd have liked to have fed him more often. He's not upset about it, just a bit wistful, and I wouldn't want to deny him that with a future DC.

I want more sleep too, which ties into being able to hand feeds over to someone else. With the other DC we had an arrangement where I'd do night feeds during the week as I didn't work but DH did, and he'd do them on a weeken/on his days off. That way we both got nights where we could sleep and we shared the wake ups. We were lucky in that we had good sleepers but DC3 would wake 2-6 times a night for a feed and would happily feed all night long during growth spurts. Because he wouldn't take a bottle and I couldn't express it meant I had to do all of the sleepless nights which was - frankly - shit.

I have my other DC to think of too, one of whom has additional needs, and a business. I need to be able to do a feed and then know I have at least 2-4 hours before the next one rather than have the unpredictability of the early months where the baby would randomly feed for hours at a stretch with no break.

It's no-one else's business - "happy mum, happy baby".

Exactly. So long as it ain't piss or poison then it's got nothing to do with anybody else

I've got 5 dc and I've done a mixture of breast, formula and expressing. I've been judged for all 3 of these things at one time or another. I've also been judged for using a buggy for my disabled 6 year old, posting photos of my chronically ill baby on facebook (apparently he should be hidden from view in case his existence upsets people), not being with my baby in nicu 24/7 (I only went home to sleep and spend time with my other children), for having a homebirth, for having a C-section, for being induced, for declining induction, for not sending one of my children to pre-school, for sending one of my children to pre-school. The list goes on and mostly it's the people who don't know me who judge. The ones who just see a tiny snapshot of my life.

Sometimes I wish we could just all accept that some people make different decisions to us and wind our necks in.