To think that if you were REALLY concerned about babies getting the best start...

[jorahmormont]

... you'd focus your efforts on complaining to the government about the lack of support for breastfeeding mothers, and protest against formula companies, rather than wasting energy trying to make formula-feeding mothers feel shit?

This isn't a discussion of FF vs BF. We all know the statistics by now, and we all know that only 2% medically can't BF etc, and that medical reasons aren't the only reasons women can't/choose not to BF, so it's not a debate of that.

It's just to ask... well, AIBU to think that people who do spend their time calling FF mums "artificial feeders" and telling them that they clearly don't love their kids as much and are second-rate mothers (and yes, it does happen - it's happening right now on a certain parenting site) aren't actually bothered about kids getting the best start, but rather making themselves feel superior?

And yes, I know IABU to start a thread about FF vs BF, because it's a stupid sodding debate and people need to stop treating motherhood as a competition. I know IABU to start this thread, please send , I need them right now

Artificial feeding is widely used in hospital though, I'm not surprised people think it's ok to say it (I think it sounds awful but it's in all the literature plus used by the midwives in the 2 hospitals I know well)

There needs to be better support about feeding. Both types. The fact that the majority of mothers offer breast feeds in the first few days, yet the statistics of those being BFed weeks and months later show most switching to formula shows that the current system is not working.

Not mentioning formula is not preventing most mothers using it. I suspect that more open advice could lead to more babies benefiting from some breast milk from combination feeding rather than switching wholly from one to the other.

Ds1 was fed for 13 months, but the early days were so rocky. The first 36 hours in HDU we had support. His blood sugars were low so feeding him by any means was pushed upon us, but the staffing level meant the MW could support us, and that I managed to use the skills like hand expressing to drag us through the first 10 days when we got the hang of it. The worst time was on the heaving, understaffed main ward. Had I have been transferred straight there, it's a high liklihood that the formula that was used to keep us going would have become his main source of milk. That would have been interesting with his cow's milk protein allergy, and very costly on prescriptions of milk/ soya free formula.

We've lost the culture of breastfeeding. So many need to get the support from the Nhs because it's been lost from family structures. My mum usually found a reason to leave the room while my babies were fed so for my discretion .

We seem to have an all or nothing culture, so women who through birth complications have milk that is slow to come in seem to be treated like they've lost their chance, when maybe more patience and open mindedness would improve their chances of establishing breastfeeding. Poor postnatal care and lack of rest certainly don't help. I don't know how much Ds1 needed to be separated from me for his first 3 hours, but missing that chance of a feed in that window did nothing to help his blood sugars.

A lack of understanding of supply/ demand and growth spurts also doesn't help our rates of continuing to BF. So many women are on the cusp of stopping worn down by the increased demands of growth spurts. Knowing that it's a temporary phase and will calm in a few days is often helpful in making a decision to continue.

So many people struggle with issues like tongue ties because there isn't a speedy response to identifying it and dealing with it. By the time it is snipped, the baby is reluctant to adapt their method of suckling and it's too late.

At the moment we are failing so many people who have started to breastfeed and wanted to continue. That has other repercussions such as being a factor in poor maternal mental health.

MI6 agree I have never encountered RL snobbery like on the internet.

I have two best friends who had their babies around the same time as me; they BF, I didn't want to.
It has NEVER come up in conversation; we don't give a toss.

To me, choosing how to feed your baby is like having a preference over a nappy brand/ dummy or no dummy/ co-sleeping or cot...

Why does anyone else care?

"Breastfeeding mums are better"?

Can you link?

I have read many debates, seen some comments along the lines of "women should at least try to breastfeed" and "people give up too easily" both of which points can be refuted or supported.

The 'ff mums don't love their babies as much' and 'ff are worse mothers' tend to be extrapolations from this by ff mothers.

The accusation that breastfeeding mothers only critique formula or the decision to ff to make themselves feel superior seems to be made most often by ff mothers who are unhappy in some capacity with their feeding choices. I don't see the logic personally. If you are breastfeeding you are doing something because you think it's the right thing to do and doing what you feel is the right thing makes you feel good. You don't need to make anyone feel bad to make yourself feel good because you already do feel good.

I also don't understand the logical link between making a ff mum feel bad about her choices and at the same time caring about the maximum number of babies getting optimal nutrition. Can't you be a bit of an insensitive cow and a bit judgemental and also care about how babies are fed? Humans are complex...

Exactly push

I'd care more if you weren't feeding your baby at all rather than if they're ff or bf.

It's the lack of general post natal support that bothers me and the red tape bureaucracy of the NHS / Public Health advice that irritates me.

The internet is at the root of all this ill feeling and parenting sites are the very devil for stirring it all up.

This ^^ from MrsDeVere, absolutely!

53rd Not all in one sentence, those have been said by various different people.

Also -

"only if the other option is death, artificial milk."
"But you have displayed that you are selfish and your statements show all you care about is you." (in response to someone saying the pressure to BF came close to giving her PND)
"so many babies not getting the best start they are entitled to."
"Each baby deserves to be breastfed for as long as possible. They can't ask for that though. And it is routinely and passively denied them."
"Okay artificial feeders. Why did you 'choose' to bottle feed. Enlighten me."
"If you are not doing the best for your baby then you are a shitty person in my opinion. Giving baby formula is not the best you can do for your baby."
"To all the parents who choose artificial milk, unless you are the tiny 2% that can not breastfeeding, you are a shitty mother or father. Put your children 1st!!"

All direct quotes.

Where is this? Alpha Parent?

"Why does anyone else care?"

Because the nappy brand you choose has no bearing on your child's health and development, whereas your feeding choices do.

I'm not bothered at a personal level - I've never commented on the feeding choices of friends. At a population level I do think it's a crying shame that so few UK babies get optimal nutrition for more than a few weeks when it's freely available on tap (so to speak).

nicole it's not hard to find, I'm eager not to link as my posts on there are quite similar to my posts here and I don't want to be outed.

As you can see in the above post, I haven't extrapolated those - they're direct quotes. "you are a shitty mother or father". That's not someone who wants to support people to breastfeed - that's someone with the sole intention of making other mothers feel bad, and there is no excuse for it.

Haha no I blocked Alpha Parent after almost smashing my laptop last time I saw one of her posts.

Rightyo I've deleted my posts as I don't want to be outed, it's on Babycentre FB page. They shared a blog post someone had written about formula feeding.

I've just gone through and the one that said clear as day "BF mums are better" has been deleted - probably by Babycentre themselves - but most of the comments have been left standing, so you can see the ones I've quoted. There are some good points on both sides made in the comments, but unfortunately they're drowned out by a couple of militant BFers - the one who insists on calling everyone 'artificial feeders' is the one who posted the 'BF mums are better' comment.

I remember reading similar comments on the dark side, nm?

X post

I avoid the dark side like the plague Quiet - the feeding debates get bloody vicious there too. No need for it IMO.

If someone is posting comments like that I'm wondering why they have that opinion because nasty comments like that can't come from 'a better mum'.

I only ventured over when mn was hacked, just a visit but learnt my lesson now

One of my favourite comments was along the lines of "You may think you're better mums because you breastfeed but at least my kids will have manners'

They've probably stuck their baby in the bouncy chair whilst they tap away furiously on the phone slagging off other parents. Feel sorry for them, what a way to spend your time.

I had a long labour followed by a c section and bottle fed my baby. Not one person came near me or even questioned my decision To FF. I had expected a barrage of criticism from the breast people in the hospital and the midwife and health visitors when I left but not a word. To be honest, I was delighted with this. I really couldn't be arsed with any pious self righteous chat in my own home when my child is well loved and looked after.

It is milk.

Seriously no point crying over it.

In five years you will be surprised how little you care.

I don't even have, or plan to have kids and I still hear this sort of chat and as a feminist, find it really offensive.

I wasn't BF, because interest rates skyrocketed and my DM knew in advance of birth that she would need to return to work after weeks - not months - or lose our home (this was in the days when 'flexibility' and 'workplace' were not often heard in the same sentence). My childhood was good and I doubt it would have been improved by stressed, angry, homeless parents in shitloads of debt. My mother still felt guilty in her 50s.

It's just another way for people (often women) to have a go at women. Young women - too fat / too thin / not feminine enough / career woman / gold digger. Mothers - let yourself go / only interested in kids / lost self / not interest enough in kids / too interested in self. That's just a few - and so it goes on. I am so sad that the detractors are often - not always - other women, who have bought into patriarchal ideals.

I am not convinced men do this to the same degree.

I struggled to even produce milk and get the baby to latch for the first week. I nearly died in birth and put so much pressure in my self. I breast-fed my dd up untillater a month ago when we found she has a serious throat condition that means she has to have formula with thickener.

At a population level BF should be the norm. I can't think why you'd want to encourage FF to be honest, or put it on a equal footing. On an individual level women need support whatever their choice but at a population level BF is a matter of public health.

I think we can't pretend FF doesn't exist, it's a part of life these days. I was out with DP when DD was a couple of weeks old I popped to the post office (gone about 5min) and DD woke up hungry. Several very helpful people apparently told DP she 'needed her bottle ' it's the norm I think to most people.

I'm sure I read a stat that said 20% of babies are never breastfed and only about 1% exclusively at 6 months I'm sure early wean to solids scews this ever so slightly but still I don't understand why people claim that ff is vilified when the vast majority of babies are given formula.

The most heated debate occurs on the internet in real life I don't think people are that bothered.