To think that if you were REALLY concerned about babies getting the best start...

[jorahmormont]

... you'd focus your efforts on complaining to the government about the lack of support for breastfeeding mothers, and protest against formula companies, rather than wasting energy trying to make formula-feeding mothers feel shit?

This isn't a discussion of FF vs BF. We all know the statistics by now, and we all know that only 2% medically can't BF etc, and that medical reasons aren't the only reasons women can't/choose not to BF, so it's not a debate of that.

It's just to ask... well, AIBU to think that people who do spend their time calling FF mums "artificial feeders" and telling them that they clearly don't love their kids as much and are second-rate mothers (and yes, it does happen - it's happening right now on a certain parenting site) aren't actually bothered about kids getting the best start, but rather making themselves feel superior?

And yes, I know IABU to start a thread about FF vs BF, because it's a stupid sodding debate and people need to stop treating motherhood as a competition. I know IABU to start this thread, please send , I need them right now

I'd like to congratulate the OP and all posters for making it a non-bun fight discussion probably the first ever on MN on such an emotive topic.

Some brilliant points made too.

Refreshing to be honest, I've been on many that have turned sour and made me want to leave MN.

Sorry to hear about your DC mrsdv

Great thread! I totally agree, OP. There MUST be better support for women's choices. It's really not up to anybody to judge what those choices are. We should support them. Currently neither BF or FF is being particularly well supported, which is a disgrace. BF initiation rates are sky high, but immediately plummet. It's not rocket science to then deduce that if you want to raise BF rates, supporting those who wish to do it

It's clear from the figures that the percentage of people who are able to breastfeed successfully with the current levels of support and information available is far, far lower than 98%. It might be 98% in a perfectly supportive environment (though, TBH, I'm actually not entirely sure where this oft-quoted probably bullshit figure comes from... does anybody know?)

I mean it's a bit like saying 98% of people can pass this exam after a year of study, and then one year the teacher bogs off and the examiners place a monkey in the exam hall who goes around rampaging and eating people's exam papers, and then they say, well, obviously those people just weren't trying hard enough. They must just be stupid, because 98% of people pass that exam. Um...?

...is likely to be the most effective way to achieve that. And bonus! Actual support for BF AND FF would reduce the burden on women's mental health which would ALSO save the NHS money. But women's mental health isn't important.

(just noticed my dangling paragraph!)

"We were both astounded at the utter hysteria and ridiculousness of referring to bottle feeding as 'artificial feeding'."

Are health professionals writing about infant feeding ok to use this term in the literature?

I understand that different language is appropriate to different contexts, but one of the things I've found interesting is how there seems to be an enthusiasm for blurring the issues around feeding - that it becomes about the milk (hence 'formula' feeding' is ok) rather than anything else. But really, the differences are multi-faceted and not just about the milk itself. It seems to me that this is something as a culture we would like not to acknowledge or talk about. It's not something we're comfortable with.

Personally I don't think it's 'hysterical' to use the term 'artificial feeding', just insensitive.

My understanding was that the 98% figure comes from the fact that in some countries this is the percentage of babies that have been breastfed (to some degree). I think it's Hungary where at 3 months 90-odd percent of babies are breastfed. So the logic goes that if it's possible in those countries then it could be possible here too.

Would add, that much as I'd like to think that more support would make a big difference to numbers breastfeeding, I'm not sure that it will.

When I had my dd (1999) there was bugger all support and the midwives were really unskilled. Where I live now there is a breastfeeding clinic open every single day of the week, there are lactation consultants working on the wards, as many mothers as possible have skin to skin, they've stopped handing out formula willy-nilly on the postnatal ward, and there are free helpline. All of the staff have had UNICEF training and the hospital is going for baby friendly status. However, breastfeeding initiation rates have only gone up significantly (from 75% to about 82%) because we've had loads of immigrants move to the area who come from countries where prolonged breastfeeding is normal. These women have problems, but they still keep feeding. Otherwise the breastfeeding initiation rate hasn't really gone up, despite the increase in services and skills of the staff caring for women.

I don't think it's just about support. I think our low breastfeeding continuation rates won't shift easily.

People need to learn to live and let live.

Breast feeding only puts another raffle ticket in your child's bucket of health, its not a guarantee. Both are fine ways to feed your baby, especially with the advances we've made in technology and medicine.

The only time I really see feeding wars is on the internet. In public I don't see BF mothers getting crap, and I certainly never got crap feeding DD a bottle.

"We were both astounded at the utter hysteria and ridiculousness of referring to bottle feeding as 'artificial feeding'."

Breastfeeding in those countries isn't seen as a consumer choice - it's just what you do.

In the UK we treat breastfeeding as just another parental choice - like what buggy you buy or whether you want an epidural in labour. It seems the argument is - breastfeeding should be supported in the way other choices which are personal and important to mothers should be supported, but not because of anything to do with the baby.

I've read literally thousands of posts here which insist that actually how a baby is fed doesn't matter. It's rare for anyone to disagree with that. Why should anyone bother if it's at all difficult if that's the case?

"Both ways are fine'.

In other words - it doesn't matter. It's all the same to the baby.

"Make herself feel superior"

How do you know?

I've never understood the logic. I can see that if someone feels bad about a choice they've made, then making someone else feel bad about their choices may take the sting out of their self-criticism, in the sense of 'I've done something I'm not happy about, but what they've done is worse' - ie, it makes you feel superior. That's the whole logic behind programmes like Super Nanny - I feel a bit crappy about my parenting so watching someone do it worse makes me feel better and a bit superior. I don't see how making someone who ff feel bad about their choice makes someone who breastfeeds feel superior - they already feel that they're doing the best for their baby.

You know what, BFing is hard. You don't sleep when you're already exhausted. You can have all manner of latching problems, pain issues, mastitis etc. And women simply don't have the support networks they may have had in the past. Fathers get 2 weeks paternity leave if they're lucky. People live apart from their relatives. So you're a new mum, BFing might not be working all that well, you're more tired than you've ever been in your life, you're trying to deal with the enormity of having this tiny helpless being that you're completely and utterly responsible for and you're all alone... Add in potential PND and/or hormones and it's not hard to see how FF is an attractive option.

For me, BF support would start with longer paternity leave. Someone else to do the housework, cook the dinners, look after any other kids and so on. Obviously that wouldn't work for single mothers, but it'd be a start.

I also think that not preparing new mothers for the potential difficulties with BF is counter-productive. You need to be able to put some coping strategies in place. The lack of sleep I had when expressing every 2 hours as a FTM with DS in the NICU hit me like a brick wall.

mrsdevere - numerically, posts which flag up the reasons why breastfeeding is important for babies are massively outweighed by posts which insist it doesn't matter.

I've learned to censor myself on this issue on the boards, after many years of being flamed for challenging the view that it does matter and explaining why.

I suspect I'm not the only one.

I don't see how making someone who ff feel bad about their choice makes someone who breastfeeds feel superior - they already feel that they're doing the best for their baby.

It will make them feel superior if for example they were obese during their pregnancy (like my earlier example) or if they smoked/drank to excess in their pregnancy etc.

Often people latch on to the one thing they feel they've done 'right', and beat those they feel have done 'wrong' to death with it...just so they can finally feel like a 'better parent'.

There are tons of people on the internet like this. This is probably why he rarely encounter them in RL...because the finger could be pointed back at them too easily.

For example someone banging on about breast feeding online, could actually be sat there with a fag hanging out of their mouth, while their kids are glued to the television.

Really? In the past there was no paternity leave at all. And there isn't in many countries where BF levels are high.

Formula was popular in the late 70s and 80s so I agree many of is in our 30s and 40s don't have the support from our parents. My parents think BF is disgusting, although they have always been supportive to my face.

It's that culture which needs to change to increase rates IMO. My experience is similar to Nicole's- lots of help IF you go and find it and demand it. That's not to say failed BF'ers didn't try hard enough, I'm talking in a general sense.

Women don't realise pain is normal. Being awake and feeding 24/7 is normal At the beginning. They don't realise that formula tops ups, not feeding enough, pumping etc can affect their supply. They don't realise that not being able to pump doesn't mean you have a shortage of milk. They don't realise blocked ducts should be fed out and risk it turning to mastitis.

Does it really effect you personally in a bad or negative way If a mother breastfeeds her baby?
If bottle feeding is that bad for babies, then don't bottle feed your baby! After all its not your baby that's suffering.

All this judging and belittling people on how mothers feed there kids, is sickening. I had no breast milk. 0 Zilth. Nadda. None. If it wasn't for formula my son would be dead, you think I don't feel shitty enough about that as it is. Without snotty nose women looking down there nose at me judging, because they think they no why I didn't breastfeed. Ffs, as women we should be raising each other up, supporting each other and our rights instead we bitch and moan about others life choices, that honestly have nothing to do with you.

*Really? In the past there was no paternity leave at all. And there isn't in many countries where BF levels are high.

Formula was popular in the late 70s and 80s so I agree many of is in our 30s and 40s don't have the support from our parents.*

From parents, partners, family, friends... I don't think too many of us have support networks that would involve the daily presence of another person. In my experience, having someone else there to help out was precisely what I needed, hence longer paternity leave. Another option would be mother's help-type arrangements (I think my granny had one of those!), but that would probably be even more expensive.

And our NCT BF counsellor said pain was practically impossible if the latch was right. No hint of it being normal. The overall impression I was left with was, basically, get the latch right and all will be fine. No mention of anything being challenging. So when I couldn't BF, I felt like a failure all over again.

The thing is that in this country we have lost what a previous poster called the 'culture' of breastfeeding. People don't see it as a matter of course. Women aren't surrounded by older family members who breastfed, and they didn't grow up watching their siblings breastfed. It's often treated as something that should be hidden away. It's surrounded by debate and angst. Many people remember a time when formula was being held up as the holy grail of infant feeding.

There is a drive towards improving breastfeeding rates and this is hopefully having an effect. But it's not going to happen overnight. Unfortunately you can destroy something fairly easily, but it's very hard to build it back up again. If people focused a little more on the long game - for breastfeeding to become the norm in this country - and less on the 'failings' of individual mothers, the process might be a lot smoother.

If someone has tried and failed to breastfeed, it doesn't matter whether people think they gave up too easily. That ship has sailed. Surely it's better to talk about the attempt in a positive way, so that the person doesn't feel defensive and forced to take a very entrenched position, and hopefully have some sort of discussion about what worked, what didn't and what could be done to help them BF any future child.

If people are attacked, they are more likely to dig themselves firmly in to the opposite 'camp.' If the whole thing was discussed in a more positive and supportive way, people might be less inclined to divide into those camps.

A lot of mothers are going to FF over how ever many years it takes to improve BFing rates in this country. People being twats about it just makes for a lot of unhappy women, who are questioning their parenting and feeling attacked, and probably not inclined to try again with any future child. Fewer attacks on the individual and more people are likely to be willing to have an open discussion about the fact that breastmilk is still the best thing for a baby to have - although BFing itself might not be the best thing for that child if it's not working or making the mother ill - and how rates can be improved.

For example someone banging on about breast feeding online, could actually be sat there with a fag hanging out of their mouth, while their kids are glued to the television.

No fag here, Worra but the kids are glued to the television. Mainly because if one of them does one more annoying thing today you will have to scrape me off the ceiling.

It's pregnancy hormones. I'm normally all serene and nurturing. Honest guv.

kungfu, mine's glued to his XBox