To think that if you were REALLY concerned about babies getting the best start...

[jorahmormont]

... you'd focus your efforts on complaining to the government about the lack of support for breastfeeding mothers, and protest against formula companies, rather than wasting energy trying to make formula-feeding mothers feel shit?

This isn't a discussion of FF vs BF. We all know the statistics by now, and we all know that only 2% medically can't BF etc, and that medical reasons aren't the only reasons women can't/choose not to BF, so it's not a debate of that.

It's just to ask... well, AIBU to think that people who do spend their time calling FF mums "artificial feeders" and telling them that they clearly don't love their kids as much and are second-rate mothers (and yes, it does happen - it's happening right now on a certain parenting site) aren't actually bothered about kids getting the best start, but rather making themselves feel superior?

And yes, I know IABU to start a thread about FF vs BF, because it's a stupid sodding debate and people need to stop treating motherhood as a competition. I know IABU to start this thread, please send , I need them right now

Support would be longer time in a pleasant hospital post-birth and allowing a mother to actually rest. When I speak to older women who bf they're horrified new mums are kicked out after a day and the babies aren't cared for by nursery nurses.

I don't know whether everyone would want their baby taken away and cared for by nursery nurses. That would not be what I'd want, I'd hate for me baby to be out of my sight.

What would have been a significant improvement would have been a half decent private room with an en suite bathroom when trying to recover. But it isn't going to happen at all in the current economic climate.

culture yy, it wouldn't suit everyone. But the option could be helpful, I was broken after an EMCS and only slept after 48hrs when they took ds to the nursery. If I'd had the chance to recover sooner we probably would have been in a better state.

I FF from birth .

I can't stomach the thought of breastfeeding (for me!)

The pressure to breast feed from the midwives was huge in spite of me constantly saying I didn't want to .

I was also told it was a "shame" I was FF by the paediatrician

Do I feel guilty ? No.
Do I give a shiny, glittery shit what anyone else thinks or thought of me ? No.

There needs to be general support ; not BF support only .

My ds2 went to the nursery as I was post cs. I was in a lot of pain and very anaemic from blood loss. When they offered I was so grateful. They took him and nursed him and gave him formula with my blessing. My youngest went to scbu so also away from me. Sometimes needs must and it's a nice option.

My mil and mum were in hospital for 10 days after their first births (1972)
Vaginal deliveries, no issues.
That's what new mums need. Rest, someone making them nutritious meals, tlc.
What do we get now?
Dirty, understaffed maternity wards, with disgusting food where mothers are encouraged to.leave after 8 hours (as I did with ds2)

The support for BF is very poor. Too many women discharged without being shown. Most importantly, women not being told how painful or relentless the very early days are. Everyone I know who gave up (and everyone I know tried, all but 2 gave up within weeks) and thought they were doing it wrong because it was so painful and the baby "seemed hungry" - none fed enough. As a result they got mastitis or the baby lost weight or became jaundiced. They were all encouraged to FF at this point rather than BF the problems out. The level of support appears to be very poor ( I say appears as I believe some people I know were so torn up about not BF they told people it was medical advice to FF when it seems very unlikely it was)

I have come to realise when it comes to babies many women like to make other women feel bad because it makes them feel better about their choices.

That said, I have frequently held back from advising friends who I know Could BF IF they tried harder or did things "properly" because I don't want to seem smug. As a result they think I'm lucky, when in fact I worked very, very hard to make BF work for us (EBF for 9 months) and I wish I could shout from the rooftops how proud of myself I am and help others when I can without other mums deciding it's a dig against them.

agreed with lost I would like to see support for FF as well. I had a similar experience ( never wanted to BF, don't feel guilty despite the best efforts of midwives etc) but I have had to help at least 3 ladies who for various reasons were switching to FF and were given no assistance at all - one of whom I can across crying in Sainsburys having been told by her mw " I can't help you, just go look in the baby food aisle"

but I can at least admit that breastfeeding is much more nutritionally sound and is an incredible achievement

Absolutely. Because nature has ensured females have been able to feed their young for 1000's of years. Do you make the same judgements about taking a crap?

Hoppinggreen Agree with you 100%

A lot of people, when there are calls for more FF support, get quite snotty and ask "What support could you possibly need?".

I think a lot of people underestimate the guilt some people feel when they aren't able to breastfeed as long as they want/at all. That's the support they need more than anything - emotional support.

Agree jorah Witnessed a dreadful dialogue between two BF women at my doctor's drop in baby clinic about FF while a really young girl was FF her baby. She looked knackered and so down. I was so angry.

But if they want to BF they'd be better off with BF support to allow them to do it wouldn't they?

Is sort of agree that there isn't much needed for FF- the HV could run through sterilising mixing etc if need be, and there are instructions on the packs. To me that's like weaning- but confusing when it's new but very easy to research

There isnt enough support for FF or BF.

I know many women who have given up BF in the early days due to "not having enough milk". Yes you have enough milk, bf babies eat a lot in the first few weeks. Without proper support and advice no wonder women give up, they are petrified their babies are starving.

I have a friend who is a midwife. I had to mix feed and when asking her why my mw or HV wouldnt help me picking what brand, advise how often to feed etc she said the reason is because they aren't allowed to "sell" formula feeding. Just as they aren't allowed to tell you the negatives about BF such as just how awful cracked nips are, how relentless the early days are etc.

Every parent has to decide what they want. I think FF parents need to be told in no uncertain terms that this baby will miss out on or protection from childhood cancers, immune benefits, protection from infections etc.

I am pro BF but only pro FF when there has been a medical reason as to why. I'll take criticism for that and that is fine. Choosing to FF without even trying to BF is selfish. What other reason is there for not wanting to give your baby the best start in health.

I think FF parents need to be told in no uncertain terms that this baby will miss out on or protection from childhood cancers

Careful there. Breastfeeding MAY reduce the risk of childhood cancers.

godsavethequeen, i agree that there are lots of circumstances when babies can't be looked after by their mothers immediately post-natally. My circumstances were one of those occasions - I had an EMCS and an infection and my DS was in SCBU also with an infection. I didn't see him for a day and a half after the c-section. It was awful and I hated being apart from him. If I have another baby there's no way I would agree to being separated from them unless it was medically necessary.

However, maybe it could be an option for any mothers that want it? Although, again, in the current economic/political climate I can't imagine that there would be the funding for it.

Back to the topic... I don't think there's much point to stating (somewhat inaccurately) the benefits of breastfeeding and the risks of formula feeding. I would imagine that the vast majority of mums are aware of the differences, and have made their decision bearing that in mind.

On. MAY give protection. Apologies.

May give protection is still better than no protection.

Most importantly, women not being told how painful or relentless the very early days are.

Yes, I asked the HV why they didn't tell people this at the breastfeeding antenatal class. Her response? "Well... We don't want to put people off." Instead they set then up to fail as they have some of the negatives of BF, presume they're doing it wrong, and so stop.

I think FF parents need to be told in no uncertain terms that this baby will miss out on or protection from childhood cancers

If anyone said such a thing to me then in "no uncertain terms" I'd tell them to fuck the fuck off. BF is not a magic bullet and piling on the emotional blackmail isn't going to encourage more women to breastfeed, all it will do is make more women feel like they failed and will alienate them from the HCPs who should be supporting them.

A lot of people, when there are calls for more FF support, get quite snotty and ask "What support could you possibly need?"

As a brief list:

• how to hold the baby while feeding; upright? Flat? Tilted?
• how to hold the bottle; making sure the teat is full, etc
• how to wind a baby
• how to make up a feed
• what's normal and what's not; e.g., signs they're getting enough, signs of potential problems such as colic or allergy, etc
• information on how to tell when to increase feeds, tips for when it and about, etc.

May give protection is still better than no protection

Genetic factors may give protection, as may countless other environmental factors. To say a child who is FF has no protection is inaccurate.

Onthemat I BF and my DD contracted leukaemia as well as every sodding allergy and illness going. Her twin sister was FF and was health personified. The irony was not lost on me. Interestingly, out of the 8 mums I got to know over her three years of treatment, only one BF. The 'best start' is not necessarily the best start.
You should choose your words carefully.

I totally disagree. If we don't pillory women when they are pregnant, guilt them when they feed their children, shame them if they are the parent left holding the bag in a break-up and generally make them feel like shit about every little thing, how on earth will the world function?

FF vs BF is just one of the first in a loooonnnnggg line of shite thrown at women so that they know their place. The trick is to teach women, starting young, to not give a tiny fuck what anyone else thinks if they are secure in their choices.

I'm running for President of the World if anyone wants to vote for me...

I BF for a few months then gave my DCs formula, I don't care how others choose to feed their DCs as its none of my business and I'd expect those feelings to be mutual but of course there will always be the ones that will put down others for their choices.
All that matters is the baby being fed one way or the other, BF doesn't make you a better parent, that's just one part of it. It's not a competition, there's no prizes or trophy.
There are also women that are on drugs or are alcohol dependant, would anyone really say then that breast is best for those babies?

You have my vote Terry

supermanspants

To think that if you were REALLY concerned about babies getting the best start...

You'd probably put your energies into eradicating child poverty. FF/BF is a trivial distraction compared to the inequalities in our society and the outcomes for those children raised in the worst circumstances.