To think that if you were REALLY concerned about babies getting the best start...

[jorahmormont]

... you'd focus your efforts on complaining to the government about the lack of support for breastfeeding mothers, and protest against formula companies, rather than wasting energy trying to make formula-feeding mothers feel shit?

This isn't a discussion of FF vs BF. We all know the statistics by now, and we all know that only 2% medically can't BF etc, and that medical reasons aren't the only reasons women can't/choose not to BF, so it's not a debate of that.

It's just to ask... well, AIBU to think that people who do spend their time calling FF mums "artificial feeders" and telling them that they clearly don't love their kids as much and are second-rate mothers (and yes, it does happen - it's happening right now on a certain parenting site) aren't actually bothered about kids getting the best start, but rather making themselves feel superior?

And yes, I know IABU to start a thread about FF vs BF, because it's a stupid sodding debate and people need to stop treating motherhood as a competition. I know IABU to start this thread, please send , I need them right now

Can anyone find a non-newspaper reference to that breastfeeding and IQ study that's been reported today? I can't find any references to the actual publication.

Haven't been able to find the publication, but it's based on findings from the Twins Early Development Study - www.teds.ac.uk/

At a population level BF should be the norm

That is one option. Another would be to develop infant formula that conveys the key nutritional and physiological benefits of human milk. It's not as if we don;t have the technology to do this.

I personally wonder whether half this stuff actually gets said in reality. I formula fed both my kids without any criticism , and I've always been open about how I feed my kids. I've spoken to people who are VERY pro breast feeding and not once have they tried to "change my ways " or belittle me because I artificially feed my child.

Of course ,if I was as open online about it then I'm sure I'd be met with a barrage of abuse saying I'm a "shit mother " etc.... (as it happens it's not something I've ever really brought up on here ) because people can say what they want behind a screen.

"'artificial feeders'"
I appreciate why you don't like it but this term is used in all the medical and scientific literature on infant feeding. It's not a term made up to offend people who are bottle feeding.

"I wasn't BF, because interest rates skyrocketed and my DM knew in advance of birth that she would need to return to work after weeks "

You can breastfeed and work outside the home. 3/4 of the world have to because they have no paid maternity leave. I went back to work when my baby was 5 weeks old and continues breastfeeding for 18 months.

And feminism has bugger all to do with it.

The thing that perplexes me the most about motherhood is other mothers seem to think they have a right to judge other mothers or have opinions about things which are quite frankly no ones business but the mother of the child.

Profbadbride, I don't think we do have the technology. How could live antibodies for illnesses that the mother has be generated in formula? Not to mention the hormones and so on that are in breast milk.

nicole the person using the term wasn't doing so in a medical or scientific context, though. She continued to use the term because she knew it would offend people. Whether it's 'accurate' or not is irrelevant, it's a cuntish thing to do.

Same here Foreverconfused

I FF all 3 of my very healthy kids because I wanted to, and yet in the 23yrs I've been a mother, I only ever encountered one 'Breastapo' type in real life.

When she patronisingly gave me the 'Very best start in life' speech, I asked if she thought her being obese and getting purposefully pregnant gave her child the very best start in life and she went silent.

Of course most of the people she talks at and patronises online about breastfeeding, will have no idea that she put herself and her child at increased risk during her pregnancy.

I often wonder if the really vocal keyboard bashers with the nasty comments (that the OP has given examples of), are actually doing it to make themselves feel better about their own misdemeanours.

YANBU

Yesterday I was chatting to a young woman I support, with her worker. She is pregnant. The worker said to the young woman, "you will breast feed and therefore... blah blah". There is pressure. There are expectations.

I'd be fine if the BF support I paid extortionate amounts was free while those kind of messages were less strident.

When I look back on my early days with DD, I BF for 14 months. It is possible she would have slept at all better if formula fed. I would have had another baby if she had. I'm sad I don't have another baby. So I get that simply, 'breast is best' but life is complicated.

I think it definitely does depend what part of the country you're in.

Where I am, or at least in my part of my city, I'm in the minority for bfing. DD is (just) 4 months and whenever I've encountered a HCP the fact I'm bfing is regarded with surprise (and sometimes a "well done", which I find a bit odd). Even when I was pregnant the MWs were quick to point out that I didn't have to breastfeed, that it is hard, etc etc.

I felt in a way like hurdles were put up before I'd even started. And I certainly felt like a nuisance when she was born and I struggled to get her latched on during the first night in hospital, and she screamed and I just cried.

(This feeling was not made any better when I read my notes upon discharge - lots of comments about "baby being fractious" and not feeding properly.)

There was one lovely HCP in the hospital who supported me a lot the day after I'd had her. I couldn't have done it without her really.

Even after we were home I still found things difficult, and the MW who visited for the day 3 check said they could send a bf support worker round the next day. Brilliant, I thought. Until she came and I don't think she was a bf specialist at all because she glanced at my notes and said "um, so why am I here?"

Most of the support I've had has been from a La Leche League Facebook group. If that didn't exist I imagine I'd have given up long ago.

Agh. Sorry that was long, I didn't mean for it to be! But it's something I feel very strongly about because I think there just is not that support there for women who do want to bf and the attitude is very much a "oh well never mind, there's always formula", and that shouldn't be the attitude.

I have absolutely nothing against mothers who ff. Of course I don't. And I'd never dare question anyone's decisions on how they feed their baby. But there definitely does need to be support both ways.

Ooh, artificial feeding, I remember that one. It confused me at first when I saw it written in the red book - I thought it was a reference to tube feeding, which would have been incorrect because although I had twins and they were early, they fed normally from a bottle from birth. The HV who wrote that (coincidentally) was the one who couldn't keep my girls' red books straight so that she ended up writing the weights in the wrong books and giving me a lecture about taking care that they were both getting enough milk, as one was gaining weight too fast while the other was losing it despite my best efforts to set her straight.

nicoleshitzinger
^"'artificial feeders'"
I appreciate why you don't like it but this term is used in all the medical and scientific literature on infant feeding. It's not a term made up to offend people who are bottle feeding^

It doesn't matter what the intention is, many formula feeders find it offensive so it should be possible for healthcare professionals to stop using it. "Spontaneous abortion" is the medical term for miscarriage but I've had three miscarriages and numerous referrals for investigations and not once have I ever seen it written on any of my notes.

So are those who use nurseries for babies using artificial mothering? Are c/s artificial birthing?

Speaking as someone who had an EMCS, it definitely was artificial and not a natural delivery. But seeing as a natural delivery wasn't going to happen then I'm extremely grateful to have had it. If people want to call it an artificial birth then it really doesn't bother me.

Artificial mothering (?parenting/fathering??) hmm.... it's not as if children are in nurseries (or with CM/Nanny/au pair/grandparents) 100% of the time.

Same here, c section isn't a natural birth and I'm not fussed if people point that out. However it's less of anyone's business because as far as I know, a c section doesn't have a detrimental effect on baby (in fact is usually beneficial Ie mine was life saving) whereas it is accepted formula is not as good as BM.

The nursery don't mother my baby, although I would consider them highly in terms of caregiving

I think there should be more support for mothers who want to mix feed. Breastfeeding shouldn't be all or nothing, and it is possible to successfully mix feed without completely losing milk supply, and I believe this would increase breastfeeding rates and the length of time people breastfeed for.

When I was pregnant with my first, I got all the "breast is best" crap and the dvd and all the leaflets and then my baby was born. BF support consisted of a MW shoving my breast into baby's mouth (I don't blame MWs, they haven't got the time to watch a whole feed to see where any issues could be - "I'll come back and check on you in 10 minutes" which never came, because other women rightly needed them more) and it was peer supporters that sorted out our minor problems in the end. It's as if you give birth and it all stops, other than being told you should do it. Printing some posters seems to be counted as 'doing something to help'.

And then I get home, and I have family members telling me things like "oh it'll be easier when you get her on the bottle" and "she can't be hungry again, she only fed 2 hours ago" (bullshit) and "isn't it time you put her on the bottle now?" (at 4 weeks!). After feeding her for 4 years though, I have never had comments like that since the birth of DC2

I believe that there should be more acknowledgement in general that having a young baby is hard work, however you feed them. Support mothers, don't criticise them. We're all trying to do our best.

IMO, 'artificial' is only a problem because the opposite is 'natural' which has become an emotive word as advertisers tell us that natural = better. But when it comes to FF and c-sections, natural often isn't better, but we still have these associations in our heads.

(I'm not sure that makes sense at this time of the morning )

There are knobs in all areas of life. Some of them happen to be parents and happen to latch onto BFing as something to use as a badge of superiority. Most BFing mothers just get on with it.

DS1 had major feeding problems. We had a vast amount of support but he was eventually mix fed. His brother managed better and fed till 9 months, but did have a tongue-tie snipped, so it's now suspected that DS1 probably had a slight tongue-tie as well. With DS1 I had endless 'helpful' advice from other first-time mothers who were fortunate enough not to have the problems we had. 'You should try [insert really basic solution]' or 'Why don't you try again?' or 'Are you sure it wasn't [insert really basic, easily solvable problem]' Some of them just wouldn't let it go until I finished up snapping at them that we'd tried everything, involved multiple experts and professionals (we were part of a feeding study at the time so we had access to instant help) and had been advised by HCPs to mix feed due to weight loss.

Most of them were probably well-meaning, but there were a couple who made me There was one particularly vile woman at a local weaning session who appeared to have turned up just to tell everyone how wonderful she was at breastfeeding and to make openly bitchy comments to anyone who wasn't quite so wonderful. The poor HV running the session tried to keep her under control but she wasn't having it. Comments like 'Well, I'm sure if I'd just shoved a bottle in his mouth every time I felt like it, he'd have drunk it too, but I chose to persevere' and 'the medical professionals feel that I'm a perfect example of what people can do if they actually bother to try' etc etc. It was

It would probably be a good idea if people left the BFing advice to those who've been trained to give it, and actually know how to deliver it in a sensitive and positive way.

I just think you'd have to be a special kind of prick to use "artificial feeders" in a discussion with sensitive, emotional postpartum women, when you are not using it in the medical context - ie you are not a midwife talking to your patient - when there is a perfectly good alternative in "formula feeder" or "bottle feeder". No excuse for using it outside of a medical environment.

Maybe my bad experience was due to my age. The older women on the ward did get quite a lot of one to one time. Me and the other girl my age had someone come in every couple of hours, roughly shove a boob in baby's face and walk off silently. Unsurprisingly, we both left hospital FF.

Good support is resource-intensive (including the resource of medical professionals listening to and caring about what individual women are telling them). Putting up a few posters and saying "Do this!" is much easier and cheaper.

I had a pretty easy time of getting BF established, but I had a miserable pregnancy die to hyperemesis, and I really noticed the lack of support there when it came to eating in pregnancy. Lots of posters and leaflets and advice about the importance of eating a healthy diet, but when I told them I was really really struggling and asked for help to at least get enough calories in, I got basically shrugged at and told to just get on with it, you can't be that ill, try ginger or something. (For months. Still bitter.) And oh, did I feel guilty about it. But I don't think that was because of a Vegetable Mafia or Fruitstapo or something pushing the healthy eating agenda too heavily - I think it was a structural lack of support there in the first place.

(And I know you're advocating for better support, OP - I'm thinking more of all the posts that put the problems on the NHS being too pro-breastfeeding, rather than not pro-breastfeeding enough to actually expend decent resources on it.)

OP I found that you really had to fight for attention on the postnatal ward. It seemed to me that the women who'd already had babies knew the score and kept catching staff as they went past to make sure they got what they needed. Us FTMs didn't seem to (unless like in my case you had a screaming baby at 2am which made it pretty obvious you needed help). I got told "buzz if you need anything" but nobody told me where the buzzer was (and I was in too much of a post-birth daze to ask) so that was no good!