To tell DD she doesn't have to do the 11+

[Reluctantdiary]

She is due to take it at the end of this month. We've had a tutor for the last six months for the usual reasons (test format, NVR etc). Tutor says she is fine and has a good chance of getting in.

However...I was just cleaning DD's room and found her diary open under her quilt. And yes I know I shouldn't have looked but I took a quick peek at the page it was open on. She really really REALLY does not want to do the 11+. Lots of stuff about being worried about the test, not passing, letting her dad down (he is the main protagonist behind the test). Also some other stuff about not having any friends there and a horrible bit about not feeling good enough and maybe lying about feeling sick on the day. Then a bit about failing on purpose with a sad face afterwards. She wants to go to the school where her mates are going, which is a good school, not amazing but certainly not a sink school.

So when she gets home i'm going to tell her we are binning the test and she can go to the local school instead. There is no need for her to be worrying and stressing about it at 10 years old when the alternative is fine.

AIBU or am I doing the wrong thing in not telling her to pursue it? I really felt that we had got across to her that it didn't matter either way and that we were proud of her but obviously we haven't.

Also part of me is thinking she left the diary where she knew I would find it?

I'm not convinced that better outcomes for those attending grammar school are related to attending the grammar school but rather the fact they could pass the test and had parents interested in them sitting it in the first place.

Some interesting bits in freakonomics about a lottery system for school places allowing people from poorer parts of a city to attend schools in a better part. Those who successfully got a place did very well, but equally those who applied for a place but didn't got chosen did just as well in their v. poor schools. Their outcome was more determined by the fact they were bothered enough about their education to enter the lottery than the school they were at.

Yes I've read that too. I think the biggest marker for academic success in any child is still allegedly the academic achievements of its mother and I think the number of books in the family home?

But that's obviously set to change over this next generation with Kindles, and people reading on phones and tablets etc.

I would make her do it. I was firmly against sitting the 11+, shouted and screamed at my mum the night before and refused to bathe or wear clean clothes before doing it (. My mum ignored me and made me do it anyway, and I passed. There was no part of me that wanted to go the grammar school until about a week in when I realised I loved it there and wouldn't be anywhere else. I firmly believe that it was the perfect school for me and had I gone to the local comp as I'd wanted it I would not have pursued the qualifications I possess today.

Agree with others who say that not doing something through fear of failing is not a great reason. I sympathise with your DD, but in this respect mothers know best I believe!

Reading this thread makes it abundantly clear why so many girls in selective schools suffer from mental illnesses such as eating disorders :(

OP, I admire you for putting your daughter's happiness ahead of parental ambition. The only thing I'd add is that choosing a school on the basis of friends isn't sensible as has been said above. Choose the school because you like it!

" Op, This is a pivotal point in her life, I really hope you manage to help her to see this."

No it isn't- that's just hysterical nonsense. But if it was, that's the single greatest condemnation of the state selective system I've ever read.

paperdreams - but you might have felt exactly the same at a non-grammar school. You have no way of knowing.

Those posters who are insisting that a good parent chooses the 'best' school for his/her child are right; but I would argue with some of the definitions of 'best' I've read here. For me the 'best' school for our children is the one most suited to them; the one where they will be happiest; the one where school will fit most comfortably in the context of the rest of their life as they grow from 'children' into 'teenagers' and 'young adults'; the one where they will be nurtured as fully rounded individuals and discover aspects of themselves that they never knew existed; the one where they will mix with all kinds of kids and understand that valuing someone purely for his or her ability to pass a test is a narrow and limiting viewpoint; the one where they will continue to love learning as much as they do now, in KS2.

Where we are, that doesn't happen to be the grammar school.

OP - it's not about the test. It's about the school. Start there.

Grammar schools don't value their pupils purely for their ability to pass the 11+. That's merely the start of the pupils development at the school, not the end of it .

At our grammar huge emphasis is placed on developing the pupil as a rounded individual, not just an accomplished exam-passer. It is perfectly possible for a child to be both.

Team ship. Personal integrity. Giving back to the community (school raises a lot of money for charity, and also supports a secondary girls' school in Africa).

If all our grammar cared about was exam success then we wouldn't have wanted our DCs there. The fact that they're both good at exams is just one aspect if their personality, and not the most important one at that.

That's lovely, WG.

I said "where we are", because those are the schools I know, and have researched (rather than, for example, harking back to my own school days three decades and many Education Secretaries ago and in another part of the country).

There isn't a template for 'grammar schools' any more than there is for any other kind (with the possible exception of Steiner...)

"At our grammar huge emphasis is placed on developing the pupil as a rounded individual, not just an accomplished exam-passer. It is perfectly possible for a child to be both.

Team ship. Personal integrity. Giving back to the community (school raises a lot of money for charity, and also supports a secondary girls' school in Africa)."

That's a good school. Why is it relevant that it's a Grammar school?

That's a good school. Why is it relevant that it's a Grammar school?

Exactly. There are plenty of non-grammar schools that focus heavily, and to the exclusion of other aspects of personal development, on the narrow band of academic attainment that drives league tables - I wouldn't choose one of those for our children, either.

Op, how is your DD normally? Is she a confident, conventional child who can fit in anywhere? Do you think this is just a pre exam wobble or is this how she has felt for several months? If she hasn't got much self esteem I really don't think you should force her to take the exam if she will be damaged by failing. Grammar schools can be tough if you are not terribly self assured and a competitive person. How good or bad is the alternative school and do you know anyone who attends it at the moment?

Is your ex a bully who is likely to kick off if she fails the exam or refuses to take it? I would be very concerned indeed that she is so worried about letting him down as that is not a good way for a 10 year old to feel. Personally, I'd prefer to sacrifice a few A* grades at GCSE and have a happier child who enjoys school.

My DC went to a local comprehensive school and they all ended up in professional jobs after attending RG universities. I honestly can't see any difference between them and the friends who were privately educated or attended selective schools.

Bertrand, it was relevant to the comment upthread saying that a grammar would only value a pupil's ability to pass a test.

You make a good point multivac. There's no one exact template to accurately detail all grammars, just ascthere isn't one to accurately detail all comprehensives.

I find it irksome when grammars are dismissed as being airless exam factories, filled with anxiety ridden pupils (though I'm sure there are grammars which resemble that remit).

And I'm sure that parents get fed up with comprehensives being dismissed as 'fight club' establishments where teachers merely provide crowd control (though they do exist, and I have worked in few).

I'm a firm believer that if a child is happy, feels encouraged but listened to, they will achieve. Op I think you're right to consider not getting her to do it. And to me it sounds like her father's expectations of her is also the root of much of her anxiety/ unhappiness. Healthy encouragement and pushing against one's will are two different things. My dad had very high expectations which was balanced out by my mum's stronger desire to ensure I was happy. They managed to tread the middle ground and I was a high achiever (in an inner city comprehensive school).

OP, I wouldn't take what a 10 year old has written on one page of a diary as an accurate reflection of deep seated anxiety on this issue.

It might reflect how she felt at that particular second ad she hasn't given it another moment's concern.

You need to talk to her. Ask her to open up about it.Then work through her concerns. Fear of failure and not going with friends are not good enough reasons for her not to take the test IMVHO. Fear of letting her Dad down needs to be addressed.

Hello

Just a quick update. I had a huge talk with DD last night. She was very teary that I had found her diary. Worried hugely about "failing", she said if it didn't matter if she passed then why was she taking the test? She doesn't like the uniform and nobody from her school will go there.

We discussed all of it and I told her lots of the advice from here that it's just about giving herself another option, try the test and we'll decide later etc. So the upshot is she is going to take the test.

Interesting that some people think that what a 10 year old writes on a piece of paper in an exam hall on one day is "pivotal" in their lives, but what she writes in her diary is to be disregarded...........

Hurrah, that's good news. At 10 children only really live in the here and now, so it's up to adults to take the long term view for them.

Not liking the uniform and focusing on friends are very child like considerations, which is perfectly natural as she is still a child.

Taking the test, giving it her best shot and maybe not getting a high enough score isn't failing in the true sense of the word. It takes real courage and strength of character to feel the fear and do it anyway.

But to swerve aside, and not even bother trying to take it is far more of a fail in my book.

just seen this thread and apologise if repeating.

dd took the 11+ last saturday. She is certainly capable of doing it, but I was not sure at all if she would pass. We had worked hard together and she was finding it hard.

We talked a lot about keeping as many options open as possible. We looked at both schools, the grammar and the alternative and she liked both.

She was reluctant to take the test and strongly favoured the comp, but we decided to go for it.

When she came out, she was beaming. She felt she had given it a good shot, she isn't bothered if she passes or not, but her whole attitude has changed since doing the test, she is proud of herself for having done it.

I do think that sometimes we over protect and it isn't a bad thing to step up and do something big and a bit difficult. I say that very carefully because obviously for some children this isn't the appropriate challenge.

I asked her the next day which school she would prefer and she now said she would prefer the grammar.

She has also had a good grounding for year 6 and after 11+ sats are small fry.

just for the record, the grammar has a very very good reputation for nurture and pastoral care, and bringing out the best in kids, and my quiet dd who gets lost in the crowd, but is bright, would probably do better there.

I kept a diary when I was 10. I hated my Mum for not letting me have a puppy, but then all was forgiven and I loved her again for making my favourite tea (on the same day).

I also routinely hated then loved my best friend Debbie, often several times during the same lunch play time.

"Taking the test, giving it her best shot and maybe not getting a high enough score isn't failing in the true sense of the word."

Yep- that's what supporters of the selective system who either don't live in a wholly selective area or whose children have passed always say.

That sounds good op. The best way you can support her is by teaching her coping strategies for feeling anxious, and ways in which to boost her confidence and self esteem. Put the money you're spending on a tutor towards psychological help and she'll probably be a lot more successful at life.

Too much pressure goes on how clever and pushed a child is, how academic etc but actually none of that will necessarily lead to being a happy, confident and settled adult. We need to focus more on how to support our children's mental well being, and give them the tools to thrive in the world.

The more she can practise being in situations where she feels a bit nervous, but can work through it, the more in control of her life she will feel.

I couldn't care less what other people say. This happens to be what I believe.

If my DCs had been really scared to take the test, but steeled themselves and taken it anyway, regardless of a pass/fail I would have been very proud of them and admired their tenacity.

I have absolutely lived my life by the maxim of giving things a shot. Of learning from failures (the best lesson being their sting is but temporary).

This has also been a pivotal part of my parenting. In fact it's one of the most important things for my DC to grasp, I think.

Agree shegitalldamoves. You can fail the test, but you can never fail yourself as a person if you feel the fear and go ahead and sit it anyway.