To tell DD she doesn't have to do the 11+

[Reluctantdiary]

She is due to take it at the end of this month. We've had a tutor for the last six months for the usual reasons (test format, NVR etc). Tutor says she is fine and has a good chance of getting in.

However...I was just cleaning DD's room and found her diary open under her quilt. And yes I know I shouldn't have looked but I took a quick peek at the page it was open on. She really really REALLY does not want to do the 11+. Lots of stuff about being worried about the test, not passing, letting her dad down (he is the main protagonist behind the test). Also some other stuff about not having any friends there and a horrible bit about not feeling good enough and maybe lying about feeling sick on the day. Then a bit about failing on purpose with a sad face afterwards. She wants to go to the school where her mates are going, which is a good school, not amazing but certainly not a sink school.

So when she gets home i'm going to tell her we are binning the test and she can go to the local school instead. There is no need for her to be worrying and stressing about it at 10 years old when the alternative is fine.

AIBU or am I doing the wrong thing in not telling her to pursue it? I really felt that we had got across to her that it didn't matter either way and that we were proud of her but obviously we haven't.

Also part of me is thinking she left the diary where she knew I would find it?

I remember being 10 and refused to go to grammar for the exact reasons shes listed. Personally, it was the best decision as hapiness is crucial to achieve.

Im going to encourage dd to do the 11+ because our local schools are horrific but if she really doesnt want. Thats fine.

She can always leave the good school, but don't tell her that! If you want to make her try the better school, at least you know if it doesn't work out she can change, but I believe that trying the harder thing now would be better than just settling for what is easy or comfortable.

EnchanciaAnthem Mon 14-Sep-15 13:04:14

My situation was slightly different but my main reason for not wanting to move school to grammar was also friends.

I am sorry but I dont think its a good enough reason to not want to sit.

I think its a shame the whole test has been framed in such a way to her.

ie she feels so much pressure over it.

I think you should without a doubt encourage her to sit the test, BUT to giver her a choice AND let her know, once she has done the test, she can then decide with your full backing and support, which school to go too.

I think its sending out a crap message to not even push her to sit the test.

Frame the test in a different way.

The problem is op, and I have personal experience of this - if you allow her, as adult with more perspective on life, to simply not even sit the test, and she doesnt do well in her school, you are setting youself up for a life time of blame.

She will say to all your arguments, " but i was 10 how could I possibly know how this would affect me"

If she does the test she gives herself choice and I would frame it in this way.

"You need to 'sell' this to her as being a better chance of good exam results, good university, better shot at career, nicer house/being able to travel/retire well...this is a crucial point in her life and you are copping out by letting her take the path of least resistance."

OMFG! What absolute bollocks. How many poor kids are being fed this shit?

My DD at 10 was adamant that she wanted to go to the local secondary school (OK school despite very deprived catchment), with her friends, rather than a selective Catholic school. We let her choose. No regrets. The school has exceeded our expectations, and hers, and I think she has positively benefited from being in a school where there is a genuine social and academic mix. Very impressed with the teachers too.

If you want to keep your options open, then could you suggest to her that she sit the 11+ but that the final decision re which school will be left to her? Can you refuse a place if it's offered?

Stop the tutoring and just let her have a go at it. I'm another one who passed the 11+ and refused to go to grammar school, largely because the thought of exclusively female company gave me chills, but also because the school felt stuffy and complacent compared to the good comprehensive I chose. It didn't harm me in the slightest - all top grades at GCSE, all A grades at A level, RG masters degree (after turning down an Oxford offer because I didn't like their attitude either) and a successful career. My parents were a bit about some of my decisions (especially my mum) but ultimately supportive.

I'd let her do the test on her own terms and let her choose.

YANBU at all. I certainly don't agree about staying together with friendship groups though and this is why most schools will try to break primary groups anyway.
However, your teacher friend has given you valuable information there and it sounds as though the school is stressful for the anxious ones.
Some schools are great that push the children and are very competitive, but if your child isn't that type then she shouldn't go.

I do think your dh has a point though and maybe you can talk through some of her fears which might make her more than happy to want to sit the test and attend the school.
It's a difficult transition for most children and chances are she'd have the same anxieties at whichever school she attends.

God totally torn now.

She's knows the school = career = money = happiness thing is rubbish. DP left school at 14 and is very successful in his business, as is my friend who worked straight from school.

Maybe I'm panicking at seeing how she felt wrote down?

TheFairyCaravan - loads of children are fed variants of this. We live in Kent. One parent was talking about the 11+, saying his son hadn't wanted to work for it, but he'd showed him a Ferrari, and said that passing the test would help him to get it . That must be the reason we have a clapped out zafira then. Bog-standard comprehensive means that we're doooomed .

And even on this thread the general theme of responses is, the OP's dd needs to sit the test so she can go to a 'better' school. Which kind of misses the most important point. Not everyone will pass.

OP, earlier I suggested that you needed to talk to your dd about whether she wants to sit the test. I have to say, I've changed my mind slightly having read some of the responses. I agree with all the PPs who have said that it is a bad idea not to do something because of the possibility of failure. What you do need to do, however, is emphasise that failing the 11+ doesn't mean that your dd is a failure.

YANBU at all. I feel sick reading some of the posts in this thread. All those children living miserably under such intense and unreasonable pressure. It's so very sad.

I hate the 11+ system.

I would still get her to do it, but I would also take steps to reassure her.

I agree that it's not good to avoid things through fear of failure. I think she should sit the text but just be reassured that it doesn't matter whether she passes or fails.

I think it is worth exploring with her the concerns she has. It seems that there is an anxiety about taking the test and a concern about not being with her friends.

In terms of the first, the concern about taking the test, this is completely normal as many people (most I would guess!) do not like exams. Coping strategies for dealing with this are a life skill as she will go on to take other exams in the future.

The second issue is more tricky, and more emotional as it involves her friends. Of course you cannot see in to the future to see what other friends she may make should she go to a different school or whether her current friendships would remain the same should she stay with them.

We have just been through the test with my DC and we have all survived it! So I do have some empathy (and sympathy) from where you are coming from.

I would suggest opening up a conversation about the test and ask her what she would like to happen. If possible visit some of the schools (apologies if you have already done this or have not time to do so before the test) so she can see what secondary school is like.

I guess there is no easy answer and everyone here will tell you what you should do according to their own experience.

Try to weigh things up rationally and emotionally, head and heart with her being involved in the decisions. Test out what the consequence of each decision could be 'how would you feel if.....'

Good luck x

Some years ago I withdrew my daughter from the 11+ as she found the preparation stressful. She went to the secondary modern, was in all top sets and got mostly A*/A GCSEs with a B in Maths (her weakest subject).
To her and my annoyance she could not do her chosen A level subject combination in the sixth form there (the only year that combination was unavailable) so transferred to the single sex grammar. Her opinion was and still is that the quality of teaching at the grammar school was inferior to that at the secondary modern - lazy, uninspiring and very textbook based. There were some not so nice cliques among the girls and eating disorders were common. She still regrets the move.

There is a very strange argument that I see proposed quite often on mn.

It seems to run along the lines of:

"Achieving/doing 'thing x' will not guarantee me 'outcome Y' therefore there is no point in me even trying to achieve/do thing x"

It completely ignores the fact that 'thing x' will massively increase the chance of achieving Outcome Y, it is very strange. If I had a lottery ticket that had a 90% chance of winning, would you refuse it on the grounds that it wasn't a 100% guaranteed outcome?

It really smacks of sour grapes to me...'Thing X' is almost always the more difficult path to take, it is as if some people feel the need to justify their own lack of determination by running the fallacious argument described above.

Odd.

...in this case, a lot of people seem to think that, because going to a grammar school is no guarantee of success in life, there is no benefit in even trying to get there.

Completely ignoring the fact that good school is much more likely to result in good grades, which in turn is a lot more likely to lead to a good university, good job, more choices in life.

We can't guarantee anything for our DCs, but we can certainly weight the dice in their favour.

The 11+ system is iniquitous. Awful. There aren't words bad enough for it.

We live in a wholly selective LEA, so hVe no choice but to participate in it. (even deciding not to take the test is participating because you are then actively sending your child to high school)

I wanted mine to go to grammar school rather than the seondary modern because generally they have a wider range of extra curricular activities, and, because they have an almost entirely middle class cohort, they have generally a richer cultural life (of the specific type I want for my children). I was not concerned about academics- I believe very strongly that bright supported children do well anywhere. But the grammar schools tend to cream off the most accomplished sportspeople and musicians, for example (because of the aforementioned middle class cohort)

Might your dd be interested in the extra curricular side of things, OP? This might not be an issue if the alternative school is a proper comprehensive, in which case I would say let her not take the test. But if it isn't it's certain,y a point to be considered.

reluctant The most successful People I know had little to zero schooling.

I am talking really successful small business men, ( several homes, masses of disposable income, to much larger league multi multi millionaires)

But that doesn't affect me, or my DH when they talk to him about he should do, and tips for work, because I am not them and do not have their gifts, eye for a deal or ability to do what they did. Nor does my DH or else instead of being in a low paid crappy job, he would be rich and successful in business like them!

some of us have to go down a trad route and be helped by those pieces of paper.

I think your looking too far down the line re good jobs etc.

In the immediate future she has an exam that will give her - choice.
Choice is the key thing here.
I would without a doubt always encourage my dc to give themselves choice and open up as many opportunities as possible.
She can do exam, and fail anyway.

I dont think you should be encouraging her to close down her life choices.

Take step one and just get her to sit the exam.

nd there is no doubt that the ethos of some grammar schools can be unsuited or a disadvantage to pupils who are more anxious, less confident or have more perfectionist tendencies

You cant tar all grammars like that, that applies to all schools!

My grammar was incredibly warm supportive place, and I was letting them all down, due to awful home circumstances, and I lacked confidence and all the rest.

Without a doubt, although I flunked at grammar, I got some grades without a doubt, due to the fabulous girls I was with who naturally carried me along to a degree, due to the support of the staff, and general brilliant atmosphere of the place.

IE they aimed higher and I got carried along. I would without a doubt left the local comp with notihing.

I'd have a look back through the diary and see if this has been a long term feeling or whether it's just cropped up now the test is imminent.

If it's a really ingrained, long-term thing then I'd probably leave the test.

If it's quite recent then I'd push her to do her best in the test on the understanding that she doesn't necessarily have to go to the grammar school is she passes.

I don't think 10 year olds (even bright, emotionally mature ones) have the foresight to make this kind of decision on their own. Friendship groups and interests change quickly and there's every chance that she'll change her mind down the line.

Are none of her friends hoping to go to the grammar school?

manor I agree.

We went through the 11plus last year (part selective area). I also think you should encourage her to sit the test, and do as well as she can, but emphasise that this just gives her more choice. Then encourage her to visit the schools again with a totally open mind, imagining that she is not with any of her current friends. Watch her reaction during the visits.

We ended up with ds1 performing well enough for the most sort after, single sex, selective, but very clearly looking more comfortable in a less pressurised coed.

Don't forget, OP, you haven't actually spoken to your daughter about this. It may be that writing all this stuff in her diary is actually helping her cope with her anxiety in real life; she may be expressing ('testing', if you like) extreme feelings that don't genuinely reflect her thoughts about the test and the school.

Or of course, it could be that she is unhappy.

You won't know, I think, until you sit her down and try and get her to open up to you about it. And then I suspect you will be able to come to the right decision for her, with her.

Fwiw, we're in a grammar school area, but our children aren't taking the 11+. Naturally, given that they are the offspring of a mumsnet member, they are frightfully bright and would definitely pass... but we think the local secondary school will be a better fit for their personalities, and perhaps encourage them to study some subjects in which they might not get top grades, but which could enrich their school experience and help them explore different aspects of themselves. We also don't want them in a single sex environment; plus, the bus journey to the grammar is a PITA and instead, they can fall out of bed five minutes before the school day starts.

One of the boys is 100% cool with this. The other is 95% ok - but worried that he "should" be doing the 11+; that he's not going to the 'best' school'; that he is letting himself down. Which, frankly, simply confirms our belief that the grammar would be the wrong place for him.

I hate the grammar system.

I think you'd be failing your daughter if you didn't persuade her to sit the exam. My parents didn't force me to sit the exam for a selective school as I begged not to. I wanted to be with my best friend. I regretted it almost immediately and have done ever since.