To tell DD she doesn't have to do the 11+

[Reluctantdiary]

She is due to take it at the end of this month. We've had a tutor for the last six months for the usual reasons (test format, NVR etc). Tutor says she is fine and has a good chance of getting in.

However...I was just cleaning DD's room and found her diary open under her quilt. And yes I know I shouldn't have looked but I took a quick peek at the page it was open on. She really really REALLY does not want to do the 11+. Lots of stuff about being worried about the test, not passing, letting her dad down (he is the main protagonist behind the test). Also some other stuff about not having any friends there and a horrible bit about not feeling good enough and maybe lying about feeling sick on the day. Then a bit about failing on purpose with a sad face afterwards. She wants to go to the school where her mates are going, which is a good school, not amazing but certainly not a sink school.

So when she gets home i'm going to tell her we are binning the test and she can go to the local school instead. There is no need for her to be worrying and stressing about it at 10 years old when the alternative is fine.

AIBU or am I doing the wrong thing in not telling her to pursue it? I really felt that we had got across to her that it didn't matter either way and that we were proud of her but obviously we haven't.

Also part of me is thinking she left the diary where she knew I would find it?

It is because of the need to develop resilience that I think it important that she be consulted (and not have the decision to do a U turn and pull out be made for her in her absence). It would also help to have the experience that she tried and didn't make the grade needed (but DID put in the work, which will stand her I good stead, whatever) - and survived that experience, rather than just ducking aside and not going for it - in which case she would never know - all she would know is that she didn't have the confidence to even take the test.

Is she young in her year? I have a DC who is young, and was an unconfident perfectionist. By the time secondary starts they can become different children - ready for secondary, more mature and ready for a little competition.

Sometimes I wish I had pushed mine more. It's a strong position to try your best but realise that failure can be survived and you live to fight another day.

Not saying she should go to the school in the end, but having come so far in the tutoring - imagine the boost if she passed, but chose the other school anyway!

I think depending on each child, often a grammar is a good environment if they are perhaps nervous perfectionists?

Both our DDs are very conscientious in their school work. They like getting it done properly, and handed in on time. Their planners are meticulously filled in and signed off each week etc.

So, I think they find it almost 'soothing' (if that's the right word?) that standards and expectations are very high at their grammar.

Haven't read all of the thread, but...

Whilst I agree that it isn't really your DD's decision, and she should still sit the test, I'd be making very sure of the culture of the school before I sent her. It's far from all of them, I'm sure, but some of them can be real pressure cookers.

I went to a super-selective all girl's grammar for sixth form only and was fine - but I was shocked at the state of the girls in the lower years and the lack of pastoral care and concern given to them.

If your child is a robust, confident character and/or is so academically able that they can pass the entrance exams with flying colours and will NEVER struggle, then these schools are, or can be, a great boost.

But, for those who aren't that type, who sit on the edge of the ability needed and/or who are nervy or anxious or worriers, the school I went to was an utter disaster. Great results, fab Uni admissions - but, my God, the issues those girls had, none of which were supported, because nothing mattered more than the results.

I saw more eating disorders, stupid piercings, careless, meaningless sex, tears and stress-caused illness in two years at that grammar (and it was one of top performing non-fee payers in the country) than I had in five at my bog-standard comp in a not-great area. Every single year had a notable cadre of the ones who couldn't cope for whatever reason and it was horrible to see. These were bright, brilliant young women with great potential being destroyed by the environment day by day, and every time they cracked a little, it made it harder for them to keep up, which upped the pressure and so on, and so forth.

From the sound of things, from what your friend is saying, this school is similar, so be wary, OP. A great education just isn't worth your DD's mental health. She has her whole life to go back and resit exams.

I'm not saying don't send her, but listen to what she's saying and how she's reacting now, look hard at the school and keep an eye on it, please. She has to thrive to be successful, whatever who school results.

I think you need to sit down with your daughter and just have a chat with her about it. Ask her how she is feeling about the exam and the possibility of going. Hear her out, but also give your views. I do think that she is the one who has to go so should have a choice.

I had a similar situation to your daughter when I was that age and decided against taking the test. I discussed it with my parents and they supported my decision even though I know they would have liked me to go. I don't regret it for one minute. Looking back now I am even more sure that I wouldn't have enjoyed or thrived at that particular school and was much better off at the local.

WhoreGasm: in a non-grammar area all the grammar standard children will end up in the top set of a comp. So whereas in a grammar area there might be a 4-form intake of children - the 'top setters' from a wide area. In a comp area there may be 4 separate schools each with a top set that would have made up one grammar school.

The top set in a comp will not be the equivalent of a top set in a grammar, but the top set in a comp will reflect the whole spread of ability in a grammar. There will be those who are of the same ability as top set grammar kids, and those who are the same as lower set grammar kids.

So the difference is in the critical mass in the school, and in not being sub-divided into top of top sets, iyswim.

Though in DC's comp the two 'top set' classes are further setted for various subjects by GCSE, so sets within the top classes.

Obviously a few of the very best pupils in a comprehensive top set could keep up with the pupils in a grammar top set. But the majority of the comprehensive top set couldn't. They would more accurately compare with pupils in the lower sets at a grammar, because at the grammar the entire school is essentially one, big top set.

That is absolute rubbish. At our local girls' grammar they get a number of pupils getting Cs, DS, and Es in their GCSEs. In the top sets at the comp my DC went to the pupils didn't get anything lower than an B when my DC were there, most of them got A*s and As.

I'm with the poster right at the beginning who suggested letting her take the test but impressing on her that there is no pressure. If she passes, you can then decide together what to do next.

I went to a grammar school, so did DH. My son is at a non-selective comprehensive, but we live in an affluent area and the ethos is quite grammar-school like. I suspect that more than 20% of the intake would get into a grammar school if we had them in this area, probably even more with super-pushy-mummies and daddies we have around here and private tutoring.

I think you need to understand more about the ethos of the school and how much pressure the girls are actually put under to decide if it will suit your dd.

Remember also that grammars are selecting partly on the ability of parents to pay tutors and "game" the system.

So it's not the case that - even if all brightest children take the 11+ - that all the cleverest kids will end up at the grammar schools

But life is tough - this exam is NOT the most difficult thing she'll ever do.
The way to build self esteem is to tackle small challenges, is there anything else she can do to bolster her up a bit ?
Agree that if she were to go to the local school, she'll most likely lose contact with her friends & make new ones...or maybe she won't.

Unfortunate,y at 10/11 she really doesn't know what's best for her.

Don't tell her you've read her diary, but in an unguarded moment ask her how she feels about it, what she'll so if she fails/passes etc. take about how her life is moving up to the next step etc.

It's not rubbish fairy caravan. In the top sets at the grammar it is A*s all the way.

Granted, I think maybe 2% of the girls at our grammar didn't get at least 5 GCSEs, grades A* to C. But the vast, vast majority did.

And, of course the majority got considerably more than 5 GCSEs, and considerably higher than a grade C

So, what is your point? It's great that the top set at your boy's comp got As. I would assume they would?

The girls at our grammar are roughly the top 20% based on ability, so that makes the whole school roughly comparable to top set ability. Give or take a couple of percent.

At a comprehensive, no matter how good its top set is, the overall ability of the entire school simply can't compare.

Sounds like she needs more support.
But I would not let an 11 year old select their school based on friendship groups that will almost certainly have evaporated within a few months.
She's far too young to understand the full implications of her choices.
If you think she would do well at the 11+ school, you should really try to encourage her to go there.
I also think diaries of girls this age are written to maximise the drama in their lives. My diaries at this age were written to share with my friends - they were not moments of private reflection.
I think you would have picked up on her stress if it were really as high as the diary suggests?

Yes, you're right about the varying intake tiggytape.

There's a huge difference between.a super selective and a regular grammar. Here, there's a very big catchment. Some girls travel in from 15 miles away. So, as long as they're clever enough they get in.

Though each year there are girls who just miss the cut because they're further away than someone else i.e 15 miles rather than 14.7 etc. Then another year, a girl could come from 18 miles away. Depends how many pass each year. Unfair really.

What you said Whore (vile name, btw) was that the majority of a top set at a comprehensive school would compare with the lower set at a grammar school. That is rubbish, absolute rubbish as I and other posters have pointed out.

At our local girls' grammar school 94% got 5 A*-C. At 2 very, near comps the figures were 84% and 82% (both including Maths and English) and the vast majority got more than 5, too!

It's not rubbish FairyCaravan. I said that only a handful of the top set in a comp could compare with the whole of a grammar top set. The rest of the comp top set would compare with the lower grammar sets. Sets 2 & 3 etc. Depending on how many sets there were obviously.

Yeah- because "swimming against a tide of shit" describes a non grammar school experience perfectly. Jesus Christ there are some hideous opinions on this website.

Bertrand, nowhere did I say I was talking about all non-grammar schools. I'm talking about bad schools, like I one I went to. The 'good' school I referenced in my post wasn't a grammar school either.

I'd tell her in general conversation that regardless of whether she passes, there's no rush to decide which school should be first choice yet.
And then make a decision after the exam, so any choice is based on reason, not just fear of sitting the exam.

You know, OP, it sounds like she's put a lot of work into this 11+ thing, isn't she just a little bit curious to know how she'd do in the test? I mean, you and she don't need to make any decisions until she gets the result. I agree with those that say passing gives her choices, but even if she doesn't get a pass mark it would mean she doesn't spend pointless time when she's older wondering 'what if?'.

I have two schools of thought on this one.

1. tell her she does not have do the test.

2. explain to her exams are part of school life and this will become prevalent in the coming years and she really be able to say she does t want to do GCSEs/a levels without that having an impact on her future. I'd still remind her that whilst exams are important, it's not the be all and end all to pass them but it's important to do your best and you and DH will be be happy regardless of the result.

*wont really be able to say

You need to sit down and discuss this with your ex-DH- this is something you both need to be in agreement with, not just a snap decision made by you.

I would also suggest you sit down with your DD and discuss this thoroughly. What are her thoughts, fears, what does she understand about the future. Is it just about missing her friends? Is it the fear of failure? I think until you really understand where she is coming from you can't actually make the best decisions for her. She should of course have a say, but you are her parents and you have the greater experience and maturity on which to base your decisions.

And I would also second those people saying you need to think carefully about this- you do need to think about this in the round. Sometimes you do need to face your fears and conquer them, not live your life with the "what ifs" if you had only had the courage to try something. Sometimes discretion is the better part of valour. I don't know which it is in your case- but don't make a snap decision based on reading her diary in isolation and your instant emotional reaction (however understandable that may be).

If there was no test involved, and no badge as to which school is supposedly 'better', which school has an ethos and culture which will better suit your daughter, do you think?
I went to a girls grammar which left me so screwed up over all sorts of things -(class, shyness, bitchy in-groups and not being able to relate to boys, for a start) I scraped into a poly. My DD went to a couple of very mixed comps, can get on with anyone, has always had healthy friendships with both sexes, got straight As when she felt like it and went to Cambridge.

I do strongly agree with others who have suggested encouraging her to just sit the test and 'see'. If she never sits it, she will never know.

And at least if she passes and has that under her belt she has the option to possibly transfer into the grammar in Yr 8 or Yr 9 if the comprehensive turns out not to be all she hoped.

She might be absolutely fine at the comprehensive. But it depends on its standards and ethos etc. It could be a pretty bleak place for an academic girl who enjoys studying. Or it could encourage her and challenge her.

But at least with an 11+ pass under her belt she has more choices in the medium to long term.