To find it very irritating when parents will go to any length to avoid upsetting their child?

[Audrella]

Even when it means upsetting others in the process just to avoid their precious little flower from being upset.

Yesterday I took DS out with a friend and her DS, who is the same age as my son. My friend spoils her son a lot; he is quite demanding (the boys are 7), and she will do things like start talking to me and he'll make the smallest demand murmur and she will never make him wait, she'll just walk off to do whatever he wants. Anyway, yesterday my friend's DS suddenly started saying that my son's name is short for a really horrible, old fashioned name that was obviously going to wind my DS up. DS came over to me with the other boy and said "My name's not short for X is it, mum?" and I said "no, of course it's not". The other boy then started crying and my friend soothingly murmured "Yes darling, it IS short for X". Rather than tell her son he was wrong!

DS also recently had a party. One child had a tantrum when I gave out the party bags because he didn't like what was in them. Instead of telling him that it was tough luck, the mum kept being all softly softly with him, and hinting to me that he really wanted something else and trying to find out if I had something different he could have (I didn't)

AIBU to find this behaviour annoying and think that we are going to end up with a generation of spoilt, pampered kids!!

tiggy, that's just reminded me of a nightmare party when I was about to be 8. DM was a teacher at the school I attended, although she didn't teach my class. A new girl had arrived in my class a few weeks before and her DM (a doctor) asked my DM to invite her to my party so she could make some friends.

DM was a much kinder person than me and persuaded me to say yes, although I didn't want her ahead of others friends from my class.

She was a nightmare from the start and displayed much of the behaviour you describe. Parties among our class were very much "drop and run" but her DM insisted on staying. Every present I opened she already had or cried because she didn't and her DM promised to buy it for her. One present was a beautiful picture of a pony painted by the DF of one of my friends (I was very much a horsey child). I loved it. "Jane" burst into tears because she wanted it. Her DM offered to buy it, right there in front of us all. My DM said no, obviously and Jane's DM told me I was cruel.

Our games were mostly accompanied by her lying on the floor and screaming because she didn't win something or wanted to be allowed to win something. Her DM took one of my present out of its box and gave it to her to play with. My mother noticed and snatched it back. More stamping and screaming.

The final straw was when my mum lit the candles and Jane's mum asked if she could blow them out first. MY DM told her she was being ridiculous and of course she couldn't. Jane threw herself on the floor and screamed some more and my DM told her mother to take her home.

I found out years later that Jane had been adopted as a baby by the single doctor and raised according to some book she'd read. Jane was moved from school to school because she was "unhappy" and never told no at home.

I saw her again in town when I was about 17 and she recognised me. She'd changed her name to something very trendy for the time and had decided to become a model.

duplodon, that was a great post about the parents no having the resilience to cope with their child's negative feelings.

What happened with parts of the previous generation to mean that 2nd generation lack of emotional resilience where this is being noticed as commonplace, I wonder?

I notice the effects among slightly older youngsters (millennials, I suppose) at work. Many of them seem to want to do things their way or not at all and are disproportionately sensitive when pulled up on it, no matter how gentle the correction. Unfortunately for them, those ones get weeded out quite quickly. Was this always a thing? I don't remember it among my peers, but many of them must be the parents being described here.

I suppose my GP generation was grateful for the small things they had An orange at Christmas, few pence and a doll. Their parents were huggy kissy types. Seem and not heard. Living conditions have got better and more money available along with stuff and it is just stuff! Latest trainers lates game first to see a film. All adds up.

Unfortunately kids are not as polite about this soppy parenting as we are. On holiday with friends their dd shoved ours off a bed totally unprovoked. The girls weren't toddlers either dd 7 the other child 6. The other parents weakly said "oh our dd is abit tired" and did nothing. Our normally meek polite dd said loudly "I cannot believe I have been pushed off a bed by x and her parents have done nothing about it". The parents looked shame faced but rabbits in headlights as too scared to discipline their dd. Both parents super successful powerful people but weirdly out of their depth where their dd was concerned. Other kids won't play along with it the way we adults are socially constrained to...

you not family, back in the lovely days of whole class parties

Although I do agree to some extent I will say this - I find it very hard to scold my child because of experiences I had as a child. I am confronting this so I do not spoil or teach my child bad behaviour and things are improving. I was physically and emotionally abused by my father after my mum passed away and overcompensate with love because of this as well as give too many chances when it comes to bad behaviour. Although I do not think this is the case with all, I do feel this is something to consider. Of course it is wrong to indulge your child's wrongdoings but sometimes there are reasons behind the way people parent.

I was having tea with a friend once when her 4 yr old interrupted us and abruptly said, "I want juice". I was already because my DS, even at that age, knew to say "excuse me..." and to wait a minute. She said, "Oh yes sweetie," and tried to finish her sentence. Her daughter's face contorted at once and she screamed, ^"Do I have to scratch my face to blood!?" at which her mother jumped up, apologised profusely and went to get the juice. She must have seen my face, because she said in obvious distress "she'll do it, she'll do it!" to me. The same child glared at me and hissed, "You're very rude!" when I told her to take her feet off my kitchen table - politely, because I always try to model politeness. I also saw her having a fullblown toddler meltdown on her own kitchen floor because she wasn't allowed an ice cream, and just as I was thinking with approval that it was unusually toughminded for her mum, she explained that the DD had eaten the brand new pack of 4 bought that day and wanted her to go and get some more, and she couldn't until her DH got back in from work as he had the car.

I agree that parents who can't cope with a child's ungovernable emotions are actually letting them down. In my friend's case, she grew up in a violent home, and while the violence was never aimed at her, I think witnessing it made her incapable of coping with conflict. She's chronically avoidant in a lot of ways, actually. But her inability to face her children's more extreme emotions makes me sad for her, and for them. They are fine at school, because they know the score. They were fine at preschool, too. But I'd not like to guess what their future relationships will be like, because I don't know what sort of modelling is being set up - their parents have a really happy marriage, and my friend is quite genuinely one of the warmest and kindest people you could ever meet inside her own comfort zone, so I am hoping that will be the primary factor. Who knows.

I also worry how she will offer them the emotional support they need in their teenage years, because she can't bear anyone else's suffering or pain at all. She tries to hide from it. And that is going to make for a lonely adolescence for them, perhaps.

Other kids won't play along with it the way we adults are socially constrained to

A very interesting point and probably one of the main reasons that children should be able to play out, unsupervised, whenever possible.

Teachermummy have a biiiiig hug. I hear you. I don't think your scenario is usual, but it's a valid point and oooh I just want to give you another hug. xx

Thank you Pictish, big hugs gratefully received and sent right back. You are right thankfully it's not usual, but definitely something to be considered xx

When my child wails I want to cut my wrists.
Anything to stop the noise.
Perhaps these parents are similarly afflicted.

I can't actually imagine saying 'yes of course you can have it darling' if one of mine throws a tantrum over something they can't have. I'm more likely to say 'of course I can't give it to you now, I can't reward that sort of behaviour'. I do, too. I can be as stubborn as a child. I'm more likely to get cross with the tantrum thrower than appease them. It infuriates me when they resort to such behaviour. It just doesn't work with me. We were never spoilt as children and they bloody well won't be either. We've had the odd tantrum in public, of course we have, and said perpetrator is usually whisked away home and left to shout it out in the privacy of their bedroom.

Sorry wooly not a good enough reason to indulge them. They'll cry a whole lot more once other kids put them in their place. The worlds a hard place for anyone who can't handle disappointment.
I get the point about the parents childhood, but that still needs to be balanced against what long term larger problems you could inadvertently cause your child instead.

Agree, tantrum does not get you what you want, and those who say they are only little for a short time, they are long time adults. It truly affects their relationships.

In all honesty though Lurked, some parents just don't have the skills and attempting them is a stretch beyond their capacity. It isn't usually a choice. Parents don't sit there thinking, ooh, how could I be ineffectual today.. what shall I try out to fuck this up today? I think often that's forgotten on threads like this... and while there are parenting courses and therapy and that sort of thing, it isn't that straightforward for quite a lot of people really. Most people would rather do the best they can, some people just don't manage it very well.

People who can't handle disappointment or manage their children's difficult emotions are often people whose very basic need for love and security was not met in very early infancy and childhood. It has such a profound effect on development. One of my grandparents grew up in a house where his father repeatedly tried to murder his mother in front of him among many other terrible things. The abuse that he experienced was of such a major magnitude... and he NEVER lifted a finger to any of his children, nor did they ever doubt that he loved them as best as he could, but it was clear that he lived his entire life in quite huge pain.. and would have found it VERY hard to see any of them so much as whimper. In turn, my parent from that family also struggles hugely with seeing children express emotions, and a further generation on I'm aware of its impact on me - two generations away from some of the trauma that brought about this pattern. It's obviously much diluted with my siblings and I... but the echoes are still there.. and bear in mind the fact my grandparent broke the cycle of abuse and didn't physically or sexually abuse his children is not even the norm (these often continue).

I think in general people do their best. I don't know why there's been a cultural shift towards more of this but I do wonder if it relates to the fact a huge number of people across the world have suffered huge trauma which probably had an impact - the world wars being just one example . I think there may have been a LOT of people for a very long time who just couldn't bear to see people express any sort of negative emotion because it was just too raw... and now we live increasingly isolated lives too, so the opportunities for social support are lesser and people seem to need this for resilience and recovery.

The key to resilience is to be able to feel a healthy fluctuation of feeling, have a little shot of cortisol or a brief racing of the heart with stress and anger and recover. A kind glance, a joke from a neighbour, a bit of banter - those things keep us going and thriving when things are off kilter internally. That doesn't happen as easily for people these days, and never has for people living at war or in chronic adversity. It's probably massively complex. I just feel sadness for any parent who feels huge overwhelm at their child's emotion, and a lot of compassion.

I help to run a group for 5-7 year olds 1 day a week for 20 girls (for my sins). A couple of weeks before the holidays we took in a new girl (6yo) and OMG I have never met a more pampered 'princess'...sorry I mean spoilt little brat!
The first couple of weeks were not too bad. We had the usual 'not sure what I am doing' behaviour which we know how to deal with. Then it started.

She refused to join in with any activity and song or ...well anything really. "I don't want to do that I want to do this" and go off and do it. Fifth week in she threw a tantrum was then sick. As it was only 10 minutes till the end we sat her on the bench and gave her a drink of water. When her mum came she started to cry. I went over and said that she had been poorly. Mum just said ok and left.
The next day at school (our daughters are in the same year) I went over to mum to see how she was and she said that her dd said that she was not allowed to do x and we should have let her do what she wanted as that is why she had made herself sick. I was aghast.
The next week she wouldn't do anything we asked her and we tried to get her to join in. She screamed at the top of her voice while hitting herself in the face as we weren't doing what she wanted and if we didn't she was going to tell her mum that we had hit her! (As much as I would have loved to at that point none of us did). We were all shocked. When mum came to collect we asked her to stay behind so we could have a word about what had happened. While it was being explained her DD was throwing herself on the floor trying to bite and hit mum then punched her baby brother 18 months at the most and took a biscuit off him. All mum said was 'come on darling get up. Don't hit your baby brother please. Please don't bite me it isn't a nice thing to do'. When we had finished explaining she said 'not again' and could we not just do what she wanted. I have never seen a parent look more deflated than her. We explained that we had another 19 children to look after and spent time, energy and money putting together activities that are fun and educational.
Her mum came over to see me in the school yard before the next session and said that she wasn't coming back and they were going to look for a new after school activity.
I have since found out that she was kicked out 2 dance schools, banned from a horse riding school and tennis lessons after hitting the coach with a tennis racquet on purpose cutting the bridge of his nose and giving him a black eye.
She is/was an absolute nightmare. I am just glad that she and my DD are not friends.

duplodon I don't disagree that sometimes it might be a lack of skills, background, other events going on etc. But don't forget some people are just inherently selfish, to the degree as long as their life is fine they don't give a fuck. And even in the more genuine group, they aren't privy to what the parent or child they want to indulge theirs has gone through.
My childhood sucked and there are massive unfair grievances and occurences I will never forgive, even if they're deliberately forgotten. I didn't have security or love, anything but. Thats not impacted my parenting to make sure my dd never gets upset. Even at a selfish level it's not in her interest, not to mention I actually care about other peoples feelings. And I don't think I'm unusual in that, I know a good few people who are the same. But I won't condone or excuse dd being unfairly treated because someone elses background causes them to over indulge their child. My dd will not be sucking up another adults issues. And tbh if another adults problems, genuine or otherwise are inflicted on her I'll be judging away. Lots of people have baggage, and lots of us don't think that gives us the right to be entirely self centered. And let's face it, setting your own child up to fail because you can't say no, is self-centered, whatever the cause.

There's a difference between ensuring your children are safe and away from people who would harm them or be a toxic influence on them and having no compassion for or judging people who lack skills. Lacking skills isn't "self-centred" and the fact you or I or anyone else "has baggage" doesn't mean that everyone who can't move beyond their baggage to make good choices is being "self-centred". How you turn out is half chance - partially temperamental, partially environmental.

We all need to make decisions to keep our own kids safe - I am not suggesting in the slightest that anyone should tolerate bad behaviour, of course not.

At the same time, when I read about children behaving like this:

She screamed at the top of her voice while hitting herself in the face as we weren't doing what she wanted and if we didn't she was going to tell her mum that we had hit her!

I hear distress, pure and simple. Not pampering or spoiling, total dysregulation and distress and I feel very sad for that child and what has happened to make her behave like this consistently. I wouldn't be inclined to tell my child that this behaviour was because someone was a brat, for example, but to say that this sort of behaviour happens when people are extremely sad, angry, afraid or all three and can't manage to calm themselves down or make the right choices. I would be clear that wouldn't be my child's problem to solve, but I wouldn't train them in judging this person harshly.

I simply don't see the benefit in suggesting that people choose to behave in ways that are harmful to themselves or the people they love because they are "selfish". Selfish just doesn't work here as an adjective - there's very little real benefit to behaving in this way, it causes huge problems even in the moment. It is a hard way to live, causing a lot of heartache and trouble. I've also worked for years with people who feel themselves to be "broken", who are quite seriously mentally unwell or addicted: people who engage tenaciously with services and with interventions to try to do better and just.. don't. Not everyone can fix this sort of pattern, just because some people can..

YANBU. I'm the first to admit that I pick my battles, but allowing your child to be a nasty bully about some other child's name or be rude about the contents of a party bag is just not on.

And the result of this type of parenting for teachers means students who think that school rules don't apply to them.....

Some of the children mentioned on here sound like they have enormous problems and that although parenting may not have helped, there are other factors at play. I think people would be suprised how little help there is for families with children with challenging behavkour and mental health problems.

Someone I know (who is very self centred) told me she is actively teaching her child to continue go try to get her own way because pushy people do better in life! She may well be right, but her child is already a major pain to be around and is still quite young.

"Duplo you're coming across to me now like one of these parents excusing their badly behaved children 'oh its not really their fault, they had a tough childhood' is the same as these parents saying 'oh they pushed your child into the road? Well it wasn't really their fault they're tired' oh please!! "

I don't have badly behaved children. I have children who behave very well and have occasional, very rare, tantrums. Not one of my children (I have three) has ever had trouble with another child anything like that described on this thread, or really any trouble at all other than once incident of toddler biting at 18 months where the eldest bit and one at roughly the same age where the middle one was bitten!

I work with people with complex communication disorders (neurodevelopmental) and also families with severe mental health challenges. In addition I had parents with their own struggles. Like Zazzie says, I think people might be very surprised at how little support there is for these people to change their behaviour.

Sash perhaps you could suggest to mum that if DD is going to keep coming, she needs to become a unit helper, as you don't have the staff capacity to support her. Sounds awful