To find it very irritating when parents will go to any length to avoid upsetting their child?

[Audrella]

Even when it means upsetting others in the process just to avoid their precious little flower from being upset.

Yesterday I took DS out with a friend and her DS, who is the same age as my son. My friend spoils her son a lot; he is quite demanding (the boys are 7), and she will do things like start talking to me and he'll make the smallest demand murmur and she will never make him wait, she'll just walk off to do whatever he wants. Anyway, yesterday my friend's DS suddenly started saying that my son's name is short for a really horrible, old fashioned name that was obviously going to wind my DS up. DS came over to me with the other boy and said "My name's not short for X is it, mum?" and I said "no, of course it's not". The other boy then started crying and my friend soothingly murmured "Yes darling, it IS short for X". Rather than tell her son he was wrong!

DS also recently had a party. One child had a tantrum when I gave out the party bags because he didn't like what was in them. Instead of telling him that it was tough luck, the mum kept being all softly softly with him, and hinting to me that he really wanted something else and trying to find out if I had something different he could have (I didn't)

AIBU to find this behaviour annoying and think that we are going to end up with a generation of spoilt, pampered kids!!

Indeedy. She once pushed my daughter over before noticing I was there. She immediately said sorry and was duly told "it's ok, you don't need to say sorry" by her mother!
The mind boggles really but I take comfort in knowing that my daughter is growing into a kind, caring person. At 9 this child is awful. At 13 I suspect she'll be a nightmare.

It doesn't matter whether a child has additional needs or not. They still need to be parented and they still need to grow up understanding that there are rules that they can't change by whinging or kicking off.

Both my DDs have AS and have behaved in ways that are not age appropriate at times. I have never considered their AS to be a reason not to try to manage their behaviour. I may be more likely to leave a situation with my child than to challenge them there and then but I wouldn't let unacceptable behaviour go unchallenged or ever expect another child to put up with being bullied or teased because of my child's ANs.

All parents have a responsibility to bring their children up with the resilience to cope with disappointment and an understanding that kicking off doesn't get you what you want in life.

My PILs are like this with DN. She's massively indulged and never told 'no'.

We usually travel down on a Friday night to stay the weekend. Me and DH will have both been at work all day and shared a 4 hour drive so we're knackered when we get there.

SIL and DN come over to say hi and everyone has to get on the floor to play stupid games with DN. SIL just sits there with her face in her phone and let's PILs deal with DN whole other story

Once I'd had a shit day at work and the traffic getting down there was awful and I'd twinged my back doing yoga never again so I said, very very nicely 'I'll just stay here and watch you play, DN and DH'.

Oh my God, it was like the gates to hell had been opened. Cue whinging and crying and moaning for about an hour. She was 6 FFS, not 2.

Once she'd calmed down, by getting her own way about something else, MIL took me aside and had a 'word' with me about being harsh with DN

It's sad because DN has been pushed from pillar to post and is indulged by two sets of PILs who are vying for her attention and love whilst simultaneously being almost ignored by both parents. I really feel for her but because of the complete lack of boundaries I have t say that I don't actually like her at all.

I think it's really hard to judge most of the time with kids. I used to think it was really easily observable who was right and wrong in these situations but now I have a nearly six year old and he's like four seasons in one day. He never tantrummed as a toddler and he seems to have reserved a full year of that kind of thing for his first Summer holidays from school.

And yet.. he's also been incredibly helpful and kind too. He went to sleep last night telling me he was going to spend today vacuuming, shining and sorting toys and woke up eager to get stuck in. He sat up with his brother when he was ill rubbing his back. He was charming and sociable at a family event, really considerate.

And if you saw him in the supermarket yesterday? When he had a TANTRUM TO BEAT ALL TANTRUMS because he wanted THREE of those little packs of Moshi Monsters with his pocket money and was told he could have only one, as he usually does? You would be hard pressed to imagine he'd ever been parented at all. I appreciate we "did the right thing" and he didn't get it, but if you were watching us and saw him being carried kicking and screaming from the supermarket, you would soon think calling Bertie Cuthbert or the like was hardly worthy of comment.

I have been amazed to realise how tiredness, overwhelm or not having eaten has such a profoundly negative effect on his behaviour. I always assumed that would be done with once school started.. but I've learned. Generally he's a great little kid and sometimes, like the girl with the curl in the middle of her forehead, his behaviour can be really horrid. I think often when people make the "wrong" decisions about behaviour they're just a bit baffled or caught out or feeling overwhelmed or not paying attention. I don't think you can really tell what happens normally from very short snippets of observed interaction.

Duplo to a certain degree I agree with you! It is difficult to tell (the old 'don't judge from a snapshot of people's lives' is a good rule to go by) but I think we're talking here about a prolonged policy where pandering to the child and not setting boundaries is the norm.

I took DD2 round the supermarket a couple of weeks ago and was actually ashamed of her sullen face-like-a-slapped-arse over not getting some bit of tat she'd spotted. I thought 'god if anyone sees us right now they'll think she's a right sourpuss'

The difference is though that I didn't give in to dd2 even though life would have been made easier (in the short term) if I had. She apologised when we got in the car anyway

Excellent post Goldmandra. Socialising your child is an essential part of being a parent. If your child has additional needs, you may well have your work cut out in a more intense way than other parents, but its still your job to support your child to learn that sometimes the answer is no, and that's just the way it is

These aren't snapshots, they are the normal behaviour of friends children. DD has some stroppy high school friends who are finding life hard because they don't pander to x wanting to sit next to y ... Cue almighty sit on the floor mega strop .. Parents rang and they had a mega strop ... Now she never gets her way being pushy! If she had brushed it off she may well have been moved at a later date. As some of the other girls were. God help some of these parents in a serious situation.

Sometimes on MN I see parents being advised to deal with their DC's acting out by ignoring the bad behaviour and praising them in an OTT way when they do something good.

I wonder if that's the strategy the ineffectual parents mentioned on this thread are trying to pursue?

The research generally suggests that with typically developing kids it's less about being able to "say no" than it is having a generally consistent, stable environment where children feel generally cared for and assured of some consistency of care e.g. getting food and sleep regularly, being soothed when hurt, having people around them show some sort of interest in them on an individual level.

There are very few children who are "spoiled" simply because their parents "didn't say no" - they behave in negative attention seeking ways because it works to get attention or to regulate a chaotic environment when being prosocial and behaving well doesn't. There's an awful lot of study been done on this and the reason children and young people behave consistently like little tyrants is not because the people in their lives haven't been harsh enough. In fact, consistently harsh discipline and punishment - effectively saying no and not really caring if you upset your kids or not - doesn't work as well.

All kids will be pains in the arses from time to time. It only becomes a problem when it happens in a context where that is the only time they get genuine attention or can exercise power over their environment.

Great post Gold my DS has ASC (high functioning/Asperger's profile) and I've never let his disability be a definition for him to behave how he likes. What I do do is accept his disability and work round it picking my battles.

He is not allowed to be unkind, when he says something unkind because he's just blunt and honest he's given a chat about kindness and thinking before he speaks. He's told no if he can't have/ can't do something.
However despite many people defining me as very strict there are the ones who think I pander to him because I always take him something to sit on (won't sit on a dirty bench etc) or will sit out of activities with him because he's really anxious.

My best friend is one of those parents who never actually removed from situation for fear of the child's reaction. Her DDs use to hit her, tantrum etc. they were very sly with it. I can see why she did it tbh but you have to question what came first - the giving in and therefore the behaviour at sanctions or the fact she started with sanctions and realise they caused hysterical meltdowns in public so gave in.
She was very much of the "little monkey" camp to her DD ignoring her and pleasing themselves.
She is stronger now but has real concerns about the youngest - who does have a lot of social issues. Thing is it's hard to know what is what. Social issues as she was spoilt and never held accountable for her actions, social issues hence the tantrums and hitting, or if having boundaries would have made any difference to her difficulties.
Friend is much much better nowadays at setting boundaries but still tends to stick on the side of the path where her DDs report something - so that MUST be what happened and their interpretation of the motives must be correct.

duplo

I think you are confusing 2 different issues.

I agree that children with no boundaries and (crucially) no security often act out in this way in order to try and force some sort of sanction to make them feel safe. I remember a quote from Ab Fab where Saffy said that her childhood was like being left in the dark with no walls.

Your parents dont care so you do all you can to get them to notice and to care.

However the children in this thread are loved, are noticed, do have time spent on them, but also are utterly indulged. Often the parents in that situation care too much about their child to the point where the idea of upsetting them is anathema to parent and then this Little Lord Fauntleroy situation develops. The child behaves in a way that it nows will work, because it always has. Mummy said no to sweets as dinner is nearly ready? Shout, scream, kick bite.....lo and behold...sweets.

Sorry, meant to add that the second example is not the same as the emotionally (and often physically) neglectful first example, despite the behaviour seeming at first glance to be similar.

knows not nows

My next door neighbours were like this with their daughters. Their youngest is still at home, and in her early twenties, and right now her grandfather is politely knocking on the front door and asking to be let in, because she locked him out - again. This has been a favourite game of hers for over ten years. I don't know how he still falls for it, but he does, and he'll wait patiently for her to allow him back indoors again...

It's not a case of judging the parent based on the childs behavior, it's judging the parent based on how they deal with it, especially when the behavior is having a negative impact on others around them. I don't mean a negative impact is listening to a child tantrum in the supermarket or similar. But if your child is behaving badly cos others won't bow to their unreasonable demands, and you indulge that behavior and expect others to indulge them, damn right I'll judge.
Apart from a couple of twats I know, I think dds height brings them out of the woodwork in public too. Numerous times kids have pushed/ snatched and dd was always right in doing it back (like many do) and cos dd always looked older, I seemed to come in for more 'oh, darling tarquinella is only 2, she doesn't understand and your dd is actually older'. No, she's not, and being taller doesn't mean she should stand there while your brat shoves her around. And similar at every age since. One child at an activity earlier this summer kept commenting on dds height, calling her beanpole, lanky, looked like a boy and prob had socks in her bra, asking if she'd grown from beans and had a giant up there on her head, looks like a giant lolly etc. Dd eventually got narked and retaliated in kind and called her stumpy and oompa lumpa, where's Snow White etc. Cue irate mummy because my nasty dd shouldn't be commenting on her dds appearance, when hers 'didn't understand at only 11 and is of a sensitive nature'.

No, the research is pretty clear that this process works just as much in affluent homes where people spend time in the same place with their children etc but where, with no neurodevelopmental reason mitigating it, children are very highly negatively attention seeking. It's not a case of suggesting "feckless parent breeds feral kid", but that children who feel loved, securely attached and are in a nurturing environment where their needs are met and they are encouraged in prosocial behaviour don't tend to behave in these ways.

Nearly everyone loves their kids. It's pretty rare to find parents who don't, despite what the Daily Mail would have you believe. But you can't really tell outside of a relationship whether someone is "loving" or "noticing" or being consistent in how they spend time with their children and structure their lives very easily, even with people you see quite a lot of. Someone can appear to be noticing and spending time with a child while being extremely checked out on an ongoing basis, for example - timing/synchrony and responsiveness can be very off. Sometimes there are attachment issues, sometimes the parent and child are a poor temperamental fit etc..

To take the example of the child kicking off because they are not getting sweets, say - where the parent can't manage that feeling or contain it and gives in to it to avoid a child's emotional reaction, the research would suggest they are not doing it because they can't bear upsetting their child. They are doing it because they can't bear the feelings of panic or overwhelm IN THEMSELVES that arises when their child is upset. That essentially says to a child "your big feelings are too much for me and I will do whatever it takes to avoid them and make them go away". This is a deeply unsettling feeling for a child and they will tend to push against it. It often reflects stress and adversity in the parents life, or insecure attachment or other such factors.

Generally in typical development a child's instinct is to stay part of the group, to be prosocial, to co-operate, to get along with others. If that isn't happening, it's not because they are being "loved too much" or not being "disciplined enough" (though consistent clear behavioural routines are pretty important).

I think the problem is people often reduce a lot of complex socialisation processes to bluster like "they just need to be told", "no way would I put up with that", "mine would know better than to do that with me" etc. When behaviour really breaks down consistently, there tends to be a lot more at play than "just saying no".

Many years ago here in Mexico there was a great programme for the parents of blind children and one thing that was repeated over and over again was to treat them like ordinary children and not overindulge them.

'To take the example of the child kicking off because they are not getting sweets, say - where the parent can't manage that feeling or contain it and gives in to it to avoid a child's emotional reaction, the research would suggest they are not doing it because they can't bear upsetting their child. They are doing it because they can't bear the feelings of panic or overwhelm IN THEMSELVES that arises when their child is upset. That essentially says to a child "your big feelings are too much for me and I will do whatever it takes to avoid them and make them go away". This is a deeply unsettling feeling for a child and they will tend to push against it'

I think that's an excellent explanation of what's usually going on in this situation. Lots of parents (and adults) really struggle with holding the child's feelings in mind. I agree with you that it's less about the child at that point, than the parent trying to manage their own feelings in the situation. They're probably not seeing 'the bigger picture' but reacting to soothe their own feelings, rather than the child's feelings. And yes, it certainly gives the child a very strong message that their strong feelings can't be tolerated which is extremely upsetting (speaking from first hand experience).

I must confess I'm guilty as charged with some of these behaviours. I find parenting very difficult and most of all, I hate the public aspect of it when you have a little kid who needs to be dealt with in front of other parents.

At home, I'm happy to say no to DS and let him gnash and wail as he sees fit, but when out and about I find it extremely stressful when he kicks off and the world expects me to 'do something'. Do what? I'd love to know.

The worst of the tantruming is now over thank god, and I fully expect that as DS grows and develops, he'll become easier to reason with. He will also soon reach an age where screaming in public or lying on the pavement etc will be embarrassing for him and so he won't do it.

In the meantime, I do what I need to to survive right now. No NT teenager ever sobbed to be carried home by their mummy. I'm trusting the development process.

Friend of mine never says no to her 9 year old Dd.

She put a pic of cakes she'd baked with her Dd one morning. It said '2 hours ago' when I looked at 8am. I commented jokingly 'You were up early' (assuming she'd made them the day before) and she said 'oh yes Dd woke me at 5.15 desperate to make cakes'.

Rod for her own back! We don't even do 5am at Christmas.

No NT teenager ever sobbed to be carried home by their mummy.

No but I had a NT 11 YO lying on my hall floor once because I had said no (at 9.00pm) to DD1 going to her house to see her new kitten at that exact moment. Her mother pleaded with me to give in and let DD1 pop round quickly otherwise her DD wouldn't move so I gave in and let her go as parenting her DD wasn't my responsibility.

DD1 (also 11YO), who has AS came back a few minutes later, picked her jaw up off the floor and made some comment about how embarrassed she had been for her friend.

We didn't invite her round again.

Bloody hell. When I was 11 it was Yes Mrs Paterson all the way :)

We had that too tiggy, several years on the trot, could she have the plastic Disney princess decorations, could she have the piece with the ponys face on, and could she have all the chocolate decorations on the outside bit and no sponge the last time, each and every year put out when I said no as they were the parts dd had chosen them for. And a massive tantrum dd got to choose most of the music and though a range of food any child would like, it was dds favourites not hers. Especially as I was rude enough to provide tailored seperate food for a child with medical requirements and yet not her pfb.

Are these family? And if not, why do you invite them a second time?