David Cameron has finally admitted that "integration is not working"

[WhetherOrNot]

AIBU to think that he should have cottoned on about 10 years ago, not now when it is so glaringly obvious as to be an embarrassment for everyone?

Ellie, totally agree with you on this one.

Kardamyli, I find your views on this, and how you expressed yourself (on the previous page especially), to be absolutely abhorrent.

There should be an effort to take on SOME British values.

Which are?

I second this question.

Last weekend, I hosted a work get together. Imagine my horror when my Muslim colleague and her family arrived, shook hands and kissed all round, cooked and ate with us, celebrated the end of a shocker of a Ramadan (YY to previous poster with the running joke re: Scandinavia), drank mocktails and generally had a great laugh. I even, wait, observed the woman telling her husband (laughingly) he was an idiot (I forget why).

They abjectly failed to stone the gay couple.

Terrible, you can't get the Muslims these days.

Ok ghosty, my anecdata for the evening. There are a few Muslim families whose children attend the same (primary) school as my children. The Muslim children are second, if not third or fourth generation immigrants. None of these children are allowed to mix with their non Muslim friends outside of school. Every invitation to play dates, parties etc is refused. It is not a huge school so parents in each year group know each other well. It is commented upon occasionally that all invitations are refused by these families, though the children are still always invited to whole class parties.

The parents are no better, they don't attend anything at school other than parents evening and never accept invitations to out of school social events. It can't be that they don't like the school as it is fee paying so their choice. Surely if they thought all the other children and families were horrible they would send their own children elsewhere.

If this is my experience, I don't think it can be an isolated one.

Ah sarcasm and ive got muslim friends all one post good ol you.

I feel the same way about you YouTheCat. Ignorant and abhorrent views in every one of your posts.

Ah sarcasm and ive got muslim friends all one post good ol you

Indeed.

Which 'British values' would like my Muslim friends (I have many, all of them boringly non-extremist) to take on?

I'm with everyone who's asking the question: Which British values? Because it isn't straightforward at all.

You start with a simple one: speak the language of the country you're living in. Fair enough. Problem is, these young people joining ISIS already do.

Then you dig a little deeper and maybe get a little more controversial: stop ritual slaughter of animals and stop cutting bits off perfectly healthy children. Oh, but then you'd have to include the Jewish community in that, wouldn't you? It isn't simple.

After that, what next? Stop wearing saris/yarmulkes? Stop eating the food of your native culture? (but you can still have chicken tikka masala, that's British). Support rights for LGBT people? Oh, but now you're treading on a lot of Christian toes.

See how tricky it gets?

Tut maid standards really are slipping.

I think that the OP is a tiny slice of a much wider context. It's not actually especially helpful to try and draw conclusions from it.

Some areas comprise of Asian food stores, sari shops, takeaways; pharmacists; halal shops Curse them with their cheap, nice shops that are local. I much prefer Starbucks, McDonalds and Toys R Us; those lovely British shops.

What is ignorant and abhorrent about not deriding other people for their religion or culture?

Kardamyli I never attended anything but parent evenings either, nor did I do play dates. Because I, like, had to work.. I'm not Muslim, I'm a Dutch atheist.

My kids were allowed to attend parties, but only if they were held on weekends. Because I believe in sensible bedtimes.

I would be happy if they got rid of all faith schools but I know they won't.

Getting rid of ALL faith schools maybe a step in the right direction.

Pointy, the play dates and parties I was referring to are all held at weekends, and the parent get togethers in the evenings or at weekends. I can assure you I don't do after school play dates either.

Perhaps you think I should become more like them, start wearing a hijab, walk ten paces behind my husband and give up wine?

This ^ is pretty derisory.

Personally, I'm an atheist but I wouldn't presume to mock someone else's religious choices as 'sky fairies'. That's quite a vile thing to say.

All religion is fair game.

DC has called for better integration, which can only lead to less, not more

Wrong. DC was calling for less tolerance, restrictions on thought and speech. Restrictions on movement and action. A reduction in the rights of a selected group of individuals based on racial profiling. If history tells us nothing else, it us that singling out a group of people and removing their rights and freedoms, eventually removes everyone's rights and freedoms.

I believe everyone has a right to believe and talk about what they wish. If someone hates me, they have an absolute right to do so, and an absolute right to tell others about it. They can scream it from the rooftops. And likewise, I, them. No common law is broken until he harms me, or I harm him.

I'm fairly neutral on the idea of dropping bombs on ISIS. The only thing that sways me against is the likelihood that some of those bombs will hit the wrong target.

You believe you (your country acting on your behalf) have the right to bomb someone who poses no threat to you, can pose no threat to you, indeed lives half way around the planet from where you live. And you believe you should have the right to bomb them. You do not know personally that ANY of what little information you have been fed by your newspaper and your television is true. You do not know with any certainty that the people you choose to kill have done wrong. But you would reserve yourself the right to judge them based on that information and carry out summery execution?

At the very least, if you believe we should kill others because of what they do in a country on the other side of the planet, and your only reservation is collateral damage, them have DP sign up for military service and go and do it personally. That way you can be sure he is doing the right thing, and mistakes are not happening.

Or is it easier just to have people killed because it doesn't affect you and your family? I don't understand the morals here.

Ellie, a person who has gone to join the caliphate in Syria clearly has no love for the country they, or their parents, grandparents etc adopted, ergo they are not integrated into UK society.

Personally I couldn't care less how many people leave to be brutalised by isis, as long as they don't come back.

UK society has no place for people who value Islam more than life in the UK.

Ok ghosty, my anecdata for the evening thanks?

EllieFAntspoo, what a load of absolute cobblers you spout.

Your earlier post was a case in point, namely that Cameron's observation that there are elements of the Muslim community who have either failed to integrate, or choose not to, is somehow code for 'we need more wars because wars because a) wars are profitable for the West and b) we need their oil'.

The invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq have cost the US about $4 trillion. In addition to which the US gets none of its oil from those countries. If you could illuminate us as to how exactly we made a 'profit' from those enterprises, with real figures to back it all up, that would be marvellous. Thanks.

I work with Saudi's, Yemeni's, Jordanians, Iraqi's, Afghans, Kuwaiti's etc on a daily basis (actual nationals of those countries, not naturalised Brits). I work with British Muslims too. I have no problem with Cameron's observation because, as far as I am concerned, any groundswell for the meaningful support of IS or Islamic extremism in general in this country (a phenomenon that does indeed exist) should be regarded with deep antipathy, as should any degree of support for a bunch of fascist murdering paedophiles. Yet, funnily enough, I have no problem whatsoever distinguishing IS sympathisers or apologists from ordinary members of the Muslim community going about their business (even, believe it or not, those who might be vocal in their opposition to our foreign policy), just as I didn't have any problem distinguishing between an Irish colleague from a member of the Real IRA.

Your attitude is dimly patronising, and presupposes that that the average Briton is a racist cretin just waiting for permission from the Government to unleash their bestial attitudes.

Grow up.

Oh, and to be clear I have no equivocation about bombing IS.

They need to be fucking vapourised.

And yet the country is awash with Catholics who believe that God will judge child rapists and we mortals have no right to sit judgement over men of God. But I missed the condemnation of the Catholics and call for them to re-educate into a more UK friendly way of thinking, or should such child abuse be accepted into British values? You vilify a single culture based on what you have been told by your television set. I just don't get that way of thinking.