David Cameron has finally admitted that "integration is not working"

[WhetherOrNot]

AIBU to think that he should have cottoned on about 10 years ago, not now when it is so glaringly obvious as to be an embarrassment for everyone?

You do know that there are Muslim women posting on Mumsnet. We're here already

MistressMia only ever appears on mumsnet to stir up hatred for Muslims

Taken quite a while for this accusation to emerge. On other threads you're usually straight in there within a few posts.

I live in hope that perhaps some of you at last may be beginning to question the orthodoxy of your beliefs and if you do, I'm sure you too will be able to maintain the distinction between disliking an idea and disliking the person who holds that idea sacred.

When did homophobia become a crime? There are parts of the U.K. (Scotland and Northern Ireland) where gay men having sex was still illegal into the 1980s - that's within the lifetime of anyone 35 or over. Pretty much every mainstream Christian denomination in the U.K. still regards gay sex as a sin.

Big deal if Islam regards gay sex as a sin. Islam also regards eating pork, ham and bacon as a sin.

People can believe what they want and screw the gay community if its feelings are hurt as a result. Their feelings don't allow them to dictate what others can think. Just like hurt feelings of Muslims isn't a reason for opposing terrorism.

Let people think and say what they like so long as they are not advocating violence or aggression.

Sexual orientation is a protected characteristic, so depending on how homophobia is displayed it can be a breach of Human Rights.

retro all of your post is just so offensive it's unreal. Putting a human being on the same level as eating pork? Comparing the feelings of the gay community to those of terrorists?

GraysAnalogy: Do you live in a permanent state of being offended? The gay community need to stop demanding mind control of everyone else - it's deeply illiberal and contrary to the fundamental right to free speech.

If you want people to be banned from saying that homosexual acts are a sin because it hurts gay people's feelings then come out and say that, rather than blathering on about protected characteristics and human rights.

Should religious groups also be banned from saying that they consider pre-marital sex a sin?

No I'm actually quite laid back and don't give a toss what people think about me. But people should be able to live without persecution if they are doing no harm. Like gay people.

I never said anything of the sort in regards to your second sentence, I didn't realise telling you about human rights was 'blathering on'.

You seem volatile, are you from the US? I've only ever seen such a strong response from US Republicans.

I think grays said displaying, not saying. If I display my disapproval of Edward II by sticking a red hot poker up his bum, I can see how Brussels could take a dim view of that behaviour. However, if I say that kings who overly indulge royal favourites, especially ones of the same sex, should think more about medieval dungeons and their consequences, and less about personal pleasure, I think human rights legislators are going to find the issue more tricky.

"But people should be able to live without persecution if they are doing no harm. Like gay people."

It all depends on what your definitions of "persecution" and "doing no harm" are.

I don't think you know anything about human rights at all. It's just the sort of throwaway comment that people like you use to try to intimidate others.

Now would you care to tell us what "displays of homophobia" you would ban?

'people like you' Excuse me?

I'm sorry but I'm not going to engage with someone who has been volatile from the get go. If you want a debate I suggest you change your attitude.

Grays, we're not talking about regarding homosexuality as a sin though are we? I agree people have every right to believe that if they want as long as it doesn't mean that they treat other people in a discriminatory fashion.

But this isn't really about having a personal belief that homosexuality is a sin and choosing not to indulge in it yourself is it? It's about people who want those they believe to be homosexual to be hung, pushed off buildings, stoned or beheaded.

Any display of it which falls outside the law is already banned. What more do you need?

I don't really understand what you want retro. These things are already legally defined. Do you want to change the law in order to make it less protective of minorities?

Our is that supposed to be to me? Because that seems to make more sense in reply to Retro?

belief isn't criminal, in the UK, it's what you do with the belief that can be criminal.

DC is trying to alienate people who he imagines to be quietly believing things that he doesn't like. But, I think he's pretty much on his own there.

DoraGora: "Any display of it which falls outside the law is already banned."

This sentence doesn't say anything. You're just saying that displays of homosexuality that are illegal are illegal.

People like GraysAnalogy would like to have mind control / speech control so that saying that homosexual acts are a sin, that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice, etc. would be illegal. We're already seeing this approach with the attempt by the gay lobby to ban aversion therapy even when voluntarily entered into by adults.

Already in Canada the gay community has required that the state fund surrogacy for gay men, i.e. state pays egg donor and gestational carrier/womb renter, so that gay men can have a child. This is the next thing that the gay community will demand here - in the name of equality.

Because of political pressure in the UK we may now receive blood from gay men - contrary to practice in Netherlands, Germany and France. Wait until the next virus like HIV comes around and spreads through the gay community. The virus will be new and so can't be tested for and, as happened with HIV, it will spread to people, including children, through blood transfusion before people realise it.

The level of overreach by the gay community is massive. I fear for what is going to happen when the backlash comes.

Yes, it should have been addressed to Retro sorry.

Retro, that's not true. Which your post itself actually proves. It's more than legal for you to voice your opposition to these policy changes (if they actually happen) or for you to say you believe homosexuality is sin.

If you were to put up signs to that effect or actively seek out homosexuals to abuse by telling them they were damned and going straight to hell you might have a problem. But homophobia itself is not banned, just expressing it in a way which will cause harm to other people.

Incidentally gay men aren't banned from giving blood. People who've had anal sex within a certain time frame are because it has a higher risk for HIV transmission. This includes women who've had anal sex and also, yes, a lot of gay men, but there is no ban here or anywhere else in Europe on gay men per se.

But all of this is irrelevant bollocks which seems to me to be intended to derail the thread and has very little to do with the fact that in many Islamic countries being gay carries the death penalty or other harsh sentences.

Or do you support that too?

Well, yes, any display of anything which is illegal is illegal, very true. But, to say that things which fall into the category of having been proscribed by the law are illegal isn't saying nothing.

Judges make that point all the time. You could try, next time you're in the dock, telling a judge that he or she isn't making an important point. Let me know how you get on.

Again with the 'people like' me! You have no idea what I'm like, you seem to have garnered an awful lot from a single post.

I tell you what I've gotten from your posts though, you're awfully threatened by the 'gay community' aren't you?

What is wrong with surrogacy for gay men?
What's wrong with them donating bloody?

You're 'scared' of the outreach? You mean you're scared of them having the same rights as anyone else. That's ridiculous.

And like OurLeader has said, you're diverting. You're also using this thread as an outlet for your insecurity and fear of gay people.

Already in Canada the gay community has required that the state fund surrogacy for gay men, i.e. state pays egg donor and gestational carrier/womb renter, so that gay men can have a child. This is the next thing that the gay community will demand here - in the name of equality. I'm in Canada. It's illegal here to pay surrogates.

I hope gay men can be encouraged to use surrogates to have children. They make good parents.

A fundamental to me is that we should have within reason to have the right to offend - whether that be to deny the holocaust, draw cartoons of Jesus and Mo or say gays or women who cover up are morally wrong.

RedDaisy, I don't know if you've noticed but being gay is neither an ideology nor a personality type and you get gay people who come in all sorts of different sizes and some of them will makes brilliant parents and some will make crap parents. Just like heterosexuals.

But I agree you have the right to offend me by saying they all inherently have the ability to be good parents just because they're gay.

I think the attitude to Homosexuality in Islam us a bit of a red herring and I think we should be more worried about the lack of tolerance towards other religions or anyone who doesn't follow Islam in tge way they interpret it. I mean from Isis's perspective.

I

I hope gay men can be encouraged to use surrogates to have children. They make good parents

You know this is also a prejudiced thing to say, RedDaisy. Once you start adscribing virtues or vices to such a huge swathe of people, that is called prejudice.

gays or women who cover up are morally wrong ?????

You 're saying it is prejudiced to say gay men make good parents? I think anyone who uses a surrogate and thinks hard about having children tends to be a better parent than those of us who just have a baby by accident or without much thought. Also gay men tend to earn more so that usually means children do better too. So I stand by my comment. Obviously there will be odd one who isn't a good parent.

I also support the right of priests and imnans to say homosexuality will lead to your going to hell and for people to deny the holocaust and that women are inferior to men and to make cartoons whether or me or of Jesus and Mo. We need to make people robust and tolerant and if a drawing upsets them then poor diddums get some therapy or grow a thicker skin. However of course if people go further and start throwing bombs or chucking rocks at women attending abortion clinics then the law should step in as it does.

@retrorobot

When did homophobia become a crime? There are parts of the U.K. (Scotland and Northern Ireland) where gay men having sex was still illegal into the 1980s - that's within the lifetime of anyone 35 or over. Pretty much every mainstream Christian denomination in the U.K. still regards gay sex as a sin.

Big deal if Islam regards gay sex as a sin. Islam also regards eating pork, ham and bacon as a sin.

People can believe what they want and screw the gay community if its feelings are hurt as a result. Their feelings don't allow them to dictate what others can think. Just like hurt feelings of Muslims isn't a reason for opposing terrorism.

Let people think and say what they like so long as they are not advocating violence or aggression.

Of course gay people are going to be hurt by homophobia. And did you really just compare being gay to terrorism?

This thread is 6 years old!