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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

David Cameron has finally admitted that "integration is not working"

385 replies

WhetherOrNot · 20/07/2015 19:16

AIBU to think that he should have cottoned on about 10 years ago, not now when it is so glaringly obvious as to be an embarrassment for everyone?

OP posts:
YouTheCat · 21/07/2015 20:46

Like Wideopenspace said - something like that would have had very different responses.

DoraGora · 21/07/2015 20:50

One of the main responses would have been, why has it been obvious?

oabiti · 21/07/2015 20:50

kardamyli how have immigrants been pandered to?! Hmm

Wideopenspace · 21/07/2015 20:52

From Da Meedja, innit Dora

WhetherOrNot · 21/07/2015 22:04

Ah well, I stand corrected. My grasp of English is obviously not up to MN standards for starting a debate. Smile

OP posts:
silkoversatin · 22/07/2015 14:45

Iran changed in 1979 because of Islam? So that was it OurDearLeader? Here was me thinking the fact that the Iranian people were for decades living under the mass murdering Shah’s political system, [which had the highest rate of death penalties in the world, no civilian courts and a history of torture which was 'beyond belief', according to Amnesty International]. Might have had something to do with it? But no, it was Islam all along! My fault for being one of them deluded, right on people I s'pose!

See, I'd always thought the military coup organised by Britain and the United States to overthrow the democratically elected government of Iran in 1953 to secure the country’s oil, might have caused a bit of resentment amongst Iranians? How daft of me? Turns out they’re all just a load of religious nutters!

RedDaisyRed · 22/07/2015 14:55

It was more like communism which led Iran on the path to backwardness.

GraysAnalogy · 22/07/2015 15:07

I think integration is failing at some universities, where there seems to be an undercurrent of radicalism. Which makes me question why. Is it because radicalists target young people? Or is it young people who are disillusioned more?

silkoversatin · 22/07/2015 18:22

Which Universities are you referring to Grays? Can you tell us what your evidence for that claim is?

OurDearLeader · 22/07/2015 18:36

Oh really? Why was there never a Communist state in Iran then? Did the communists accidentally put the wrong name on the letterheads and decide to call themselves an Islamic Republic instead?

Silk, yes, but that doesn't address the initial point. Which was that a poster put up a picture of women in Tehran in the 70s as apparent 'proof' that Islam is absolutely marvelous for women. When in fact portrayed the results of a more secularised Islam and that type of lifestyle was swept away when the Islamists took control.

The rest of your post may well be accurate. But it doesn't change the fact that when Islamists took over Iran they began a regime which was much more oppressive towards women. Nothing you've said is any sort of argument against that.

So I presume you are very supportive of the idea of women being executed for being raped, the death sentence for being gay? Or of children being executed because Iran reckons it's fine because Islam says it's okay? It's strongly suspected they stone people in Iran. Are you keen on that too? They still have the highest execution rate per capita according to Amnesty so I'm not exactly sure what sort of brave new dawn of a better life the Islamist brought?

RedDaisyRed · 22/07/2015 18:38

Indeed. Iran got worse,. Women moved backwards.

Good article in today's Times on these issues:

"Britain is right to cut out the Islamist cancer

Published at 12:01AM, July 22 2015

Muslims deserve protection if they reject the justifications for violence found in the Koran

Islamic extremism is a cancer that is spreading around the world, claiming innocent lives from Chibok in Borno State, Nigeria, to Chattanooga, Tennessee, here in the US. With every passing year, an increasing share of armed conflict and terrorism around the world is attributable to the pernicious influence of militant Islam.

Yet for more than a decade western leaders — conservatives and liberals alike — have united in insisting that “Islam is a religion of peace” and buying the absurd notion that Islamophobia is the threat we should worry more about. Until this week. On Monday, at long last, the British prime minister stood up and said what urgently needed to be said.

He condemned what he called “Islamist extremism” as a doctrine“hostile to basic liberal values such as democracy, freedom and sexual equality” and based on the conspiracy theory that the West is out to destroy Islam. And he boldly rejected what he called “the grievance justification” for extremism and the violence it spawns.

I could not agree more. All over the world today Islamists infiltrate Muslim communities and tell them: “The infidel is at war with your religion.” Every time we in the West wring our hands about a largely imagined Islamophobia, or call Muslim communities in the West “disenfranchised”, which they are not, we are empowering Islamic extremists by unwittingly endorsing their message.

The reality in the world today is that the biggest persecutors of Muslims are the Islamists themselves. If you are a boy, as Mr Cameron said, Isis sees you as cannon fodder, and if you are a girl you are sexually abused to satisfy the lust of rulers of the so-called Caliphate.

A manifesto released by the Isis women brigade in Raqqa insists that girls can be married as young as nine. Young boys are being taught to behead dolls as part of their education. Recently, a boy was filmed beheading a Syrian soldier near the city of Palmyra.

The prime minister’s question is a good one: why on earth could such a barbaric movement be attractive to young British Muslims, who have grown up with all the opportunities of a free society? No, it is not because they are somehow disenfranchised or impoverished. No, it is not somehow the fault of the security services. It is above all because young people are exposed to extremist ideas in mosques and Muslim centres as well as on the internet, while those in Muslim communities who argue for religious reform are intimidated into silence.

The speech drew the now familiar distinction between Islamist extremism and Islam as a religion. But the reality, as he made clear, is that the former is derived from the latter. Koranic verses such as 9:5 and 9:29, which call for armed jihad, are deemed even by mainstream Islamic jurists to supersede more peaceful verses. Sahih Muslim, one of the six major authoritative hadith collections, claims that Muhammad undertook no fewer than 19 military expeditions, personally fighting in eight of them.

This is precisely why Isis and other jihadist outfits across the world can endow their violence with moral righteousness. The harsh reality is that what Isis is putting into practice is Islam unreformed and literally applied.

So the key question is whether or not these lethal elements of Islam can be reformed. I believe that if you are a Muslim and feel disgusted by practices such as the beheading of infidels, the enslavement of women, and the defenestration of gays, then by definition you must reject the theology that sanctions it. But I also know from my own experience that, if you do so, you risk death at the hands of the extremists.

It is not up to the West to reform Islam, of course. It is up to Muslims to do that. But it is in the interests of the West to help and protect those Muslims seeking to throw out the theological justifications for violence.

In defending with confidence an inclusive British identity based on democracy, the rule of law, the freedom of expression and worship, and equality regardless of race, sex, sexual orientation or faith, the prime minister has made it clear why a literal application of unreformed Islam is incompatible with British values.

And in proposing a much tougher counter-extremism strategy — directed not just against terrorism but also against female genital mutilation, sharia courts, forced marriages, child sex abuse, segregation in schools and Islamist political corruption — he is boldly going where no other European leader has dared to venture.

Mr Cameron has stretched out his hand to those Muslims who want to repudiate the religious justifications for violence. And he has declared ideological war on the Islamist extremists, including those who preach violence without themselves practising it. For this he is bound to be vilified by the apologists for Islam unreformed. But from those of us who see the Islamist cancer for what it is, we welcome his principled leadership.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is the author of Heretic: Why Islam Needs a Reformation Now"

merrymouse · 23/07/2015 08:04

I'm pretty sure there were Muslims in Iran before 1979.

merrymouse · 23/07/2015 08:07

And unless I'm mistaken, The UK wants Muslims to feel integrated and part of British culture, not extremists of any kind.

silkoversatin · 23/07/2015 08:59

OurDearLeader That's beneath you. Of course I don't condone Iran or the attitudes towards gays and women throughout the Muslim world and beyond, what an idiotic thing to say! My point is that women then and now in Iran had and have a damn site more rights than they do in feudal nations like Saudi Arabia and the UAE. Nations we have no problem with, indeed we positively fawn over for economic reasons, we sell arms to them and support them in the UN.

My other point is that there is nothing inherent in Islam that encourages misogyny and homophobia. These are the constructs of men. There's plenty of Christian people deeply, theoretically opposed to gay marriage/civil partnerships. Im in my late 40's and I lived in a era where we in the UK were criminalising and imprisoning gay people. This happened in my lifetime!

The truth is: misogyny, homophobia and Islamophobia have much in common: they’re all (at least partly) fuelled by fear. Fear of the unknown. Muslims are as varied a people as Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Sikhs etc. You can't judge a people totally by their religious beliefs. Which you seem to be doing. The Koran actually gives women's testimonies privilege over men's in the case of sexual offences, but then Shariah law chooses to ignore them. The problem is: certain Muslims have an interpretation of their religious doctrines to suit themselves. As the christian nutter who murders an abortion doctor has of theirs. A very important difference.

OurDearLeader · 23/07/2015 10:27

MerryMouse, if you don’t know the difference between Muslims and Islamists I’m not going to bother to explain it to you. Go and use Google.

Silk misogyny, homophobia and Islamophobia have much in common: they’re all (at least partly) fuelled by fear.

Yes, but that makes the assumption that all fear is irrational and unjustified. Can you please point me to the gangs of feminists who are violently taking over swathes of the middle east? Can you tell me where I will find the gangs of gays who are beheading heterosexuals and finding other gay men who aren’t camp enough and then putting them into cages and dunking them into lakes to drown them? Can you tell me if gays control many countries where they persecute heterosexuals who face violence, discrimination and murder at the hands of gays which is so extreme it’s believed every hour 11 heterosexuals are murdered by gays? Can you tell me of a country where feminists sentence to death anybody who says anything critical about Feminism like Pakistan has done to Asa Bibi whose family are in hiding under threat of death? Thought not.
It also ignores the fact that being a woman or being gay is something inherent which you cannot change. Islam is a belief system. I refuse to give it special status because it is a religion, or because most of the people who believe in it are not the same race as me.

The fact is that if there was a politically motivated movement in a European country doing the same thing (executing people who criticised their ideology or believed it a bit differently, or didn’t believe enough; executing opponents; persecuting people who were not Christians of European descent, murdering them at a rate of 11 per hour; having state sanctioned executions of people who stopped believing in the ideology, or who had never believed in the ideology but had a parent who did; oppressing women, denying them education; engaging in systematic rape and sexual abuse of different ethnicities) then people like you would be wetting your knickers calling them evil and demanding it was stopped. You’d be saying they were the new Nazis. Yet dress it up as a religion and have someone who’s not white doing it and suddenly you want to bury it, minimize it, deny anything is happening, make the people perpetrating these atrocities the victims.

I sincerely hope that history looks on people who hold attitudes like that the same way it looks at those who refused European Jews safe passage to another country in the 1930s. Another holocaust is already starting and people are prepared to make any damn excuse they can for it. Islamists are akin to the Nazis of our time.

I wonder if you would extend your argument to Anti-Fascist organisations and say 'Oh well, they're just like misogynists and homophobes because they're afraid of Nazis'. Well yes, because sometimes being afraid is rational. I wonder where we would be now if in the 30s we'd carried on thinking that the Nazis were nothing to be afraid of and were a grand shower of lads who just got a bit carried away sometimes?

Yes, it would be nice, as David Cameron said, to see Muslims standing up for a moderate reformed version of Islam and publicly and loudly decrying the violence. But the time has come to take a stand against Islamism, and crying that the violence happening all over the world explicitly in the name of Islam is ‘nothing to do with Islam’ is getting to be a bit of a joke frankly. Fear of Islamism is perfectly rational in my opinion

derxa · 23/07/2015 10:45

Only on MN would 'the patriarchy' be blamed for the radicalisation of young
Muslims.
I could provide anecdotes and blabber on for pages about this but the fact is that there are people in this country who are plotting to kill and maim innocent people. That is a problem.

MistressMia · 23/07/2015 11:59

The Koran actually gives women's testimonies privilege over men's in the case of sexual offences .....Could you give us a link to where it says this because I can only find this verse in the Quran that refers to women's testimony:

And bring two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her
quran.com/2/282

This supposedly refers specifically to civil matters only, however in the absence of any verses dealing with testimony in other areas, the above verse has often been extrapolated to reduce the weighting of women's evidence across the board.

"but then Shariah law chooses to ignore them" Sharia Laws are derived from the Quran as well as other Islamic sources .......Quite clear you haven't got a clue whet you are talking about.

silkoversatin · 23/07/2015 12:00

FGS, when someone mentions the Nazi's and the holocaust they really have lost the plot.

So I'm now putting forward that 'all fear is irrational'? Have you gone mental deliberately or do you just not have anything better to do?

In your last rant post, you basically distorted my post in order to express your own bigotry. This will be the last time I give you that opportunity.

You seem to think the misogyny, homophobia and intolerance prevalent in the Middle East, as well as that of ISIS, is some kind of pure, unhindered expression of the Islamic faith ~ that's that. The turmoil we helped create in the region. Historical, political grievances they have with our exploitation of land and oil, as well as our political and military support for the most tyrannical dictatorships in the Middle East, are all just side issues according to you?

When lawlessness and chaos is created, the most violent and ruthless elements within those countries/regions, tend to rise to the top. This is what ISIS are. They are not in, of themselves, Islam. They are a violent, intolerant monstrosity and a large part of their monstrous existence is sadly of our own making.

Finally ~ I'm not asking you not to fear Islam or whatever you want to fear if that suits you Ourdear. But may I ask, do you feel as intensely about climate change, (as they do in the Third World), or young people being excluded from the living wage, housing benefit, university maintenance grants, home ownership? Or the poverty of pensioners, NHS cuts, property banks and new tax breaks. Or the £93bn a year in corporate welfare, (a sum bigger than the deficit) that the Gov' are giving away to the super wealthy? I somehow doubt it.. You've no time for that eh, as Islam is coming to get you!!!

EllieFAntspoo · 23/07/2015 12:08

The hatred and intolerance of other people, being expressed here in this thread, is pretty disgusting. I see no difference between the blatant racism being displayed here by some posters, and the preaching we are told goes on inside some of Britain's mosques.

I'm hiding this thread now. Racism and bigotry are bred into people by their parents. If those are some of the opinions held by posters, then we know who is to blame.

OurDearLeader · 23/07/2015 12:28

Why is calling 11 Christians per hour being murdered a holocaust 'losing the plot'? Is it not a holocaust? Just saying 'Oh talking about the holocaust means you're losing the plot' without saying exactly how the current persecution of non-Muslims differs from the holocaust is a bit pathetic really and a bit of a non-argument.

I'm sure when somebody in Nigeria is told that their daughter has been kidnapped, or a Christian in Syria is murdered, or a homosexual is thrown off a building in Iraq they will be very comforted to know that it's the fault of 'The West' and that the people committing these acts are just poor little oppressed flowers who have been forced into this by the evil west.

I know you're huffy about the Holocaust being mentioned, but you might as well say that Nazism was the fault of reparations system and therefore the acts of the Nazis were justified and not abhorrent.

You're doing exactly what Ayaan Hirsi Ali: we are empowering Islamic extremists by unwittingly endorsing their message. You are claiming the victim role for people who are committing horrible crimes against humanity by using the actions of the West to justify them.

That's not to say that Western military actions didn't cause the power vacuum in the Middle East that allowed Islamist groups to gain power, in a lot of cases they certainly did. But that doesn't excuse the crimes Islamists are committing. Plenty of countries have resisted powerful invaders without resorting to the persecution of their countrymen. What they are doing is neither an inevitable nor a necessary result of the Iraq and Afghan wars. You can't just blame it on those wars and ignore the underpinning ideology.

I'm sure there are some Muslims who don't see misogyny, homophobia and violence as an expression of their religion. But the fact that the majority of countries which identify themselves as Muslim enshrine them within their laws and constitutions would suggest that it is not a minority who view them as a fundamental part of their religion.

All those other issues are an irrelevance to this discussion, having concerns about one thing doesn't mean that you're not allowed to be concerned about other things. But your general attitude might be described as 'Isolationism' or just being concerned with domestic problems. This wasn't an attitude which served America well in the 1930s when they viewed the Nazis as not their problem. Because eventually it became their problem when the Nazis allies started attacking them.

It just astounds me that an actual state can set itself up, be militarily well organised, be well funded, attract a lot of support and declare it's intent to murder shitloads of people and ultimately invade and destroy Europe and people just shrug and say 'It's harmless, just a few nutters, nothing to worry about'. I don't care how much you have a strop over it, the situation now is comparable to the 1930s before WW1.

OurDearLeader · 23/07/2015 12:29

WW2.

Atenco · 23/07/2015 15:08

OurDearLeader In Nigeria, Boko Haram has a lot of Christian members in its pay and one can't help wondering where the pay comes from. In Syria the West choose to side with a group, sending arms and other resources to the group that ended up called itself ISIS, and that any Muslim could tell you acts against the mandates of the Qur'an.

merrymouse · 23/07/2015 15:14

MerryMouse, if you don’t know the difference between Muslims and Islamists I’m not going to bother to explain it to you. Go and use Google.

Actually you seem to be unwilling to make a distinction and seem desperate to lump together anyone who follows the teachings of the Koran.

This thread is about integration. I just don't think the Muslims I rub along with on a day to day basis have the views that you are attributing to them - no more than I think Catholics are all homophobes desperate to keep all women bare foot and pregnant.

merrymouse · 23/07/2015 15:20

I'm sure there are some Muslims who don't see misogyny, homophobia and violence as an expression of their religion. But the fact that the majority of countries which identify themselves as Muslim enshrine them within their laws and constitutions would suggest that it is not a minority who view them as a fundamental part of their religion.

Have you ever actually met a British Muslim? The impression I get is that your views are based on what you have read or seen on TV.

RedDaisyRed · 23/07/2015 15:26

The only countries on the planet where there is a death penalty for giving up your religions are... wait for it - surprise surprise 9 Muslim countries. They are miles behind us. They will catch up but their basic belief system is backward and discriminatory. I hope those in the UK will learn and become affected by our superior Western liberal values. That does not mean I hate them or want rid of them though and people suggesting those of us who espouse feminist and liberal values hate muslims are just plain wrong. Most muslims don't kill but I do hope we get fewer and fewer covering up and going backwards in terms of development and losing the gains their mothers made ni coming to the west and forging careers.

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