David Cameron has finally admitted that "integration is not working"

[WhetherOrNot]

AIBU to think that he should have cottoned on about 10 years ago, not now when it is so glaringly obvious as to be an embarrassment for everyone?

If you are going to start a thread on such a controversial subject, maybe you should learn to express yourself better instead of berating the rest of the posters on here for not getting your meaning? Just a thought.

Still, at least it served to out a few bigots.

Still, at least it served to out a few bigots.

And some very nasty people who are intolerant of others whilst preaching tolerance

That's how I read it as well, Wide.

Nice dig there.

It's true. I'm am terribly intolerant... of bigots.

I didn't think anyone on here, YouTheCat, had shown any bigotry toward anyone, especially me. But then some people don't know the proper meaning of the word.

I am not intolerant of other races or religions. And I'd like you to quote me specifically if you think I am.

But after this thread I am certainly intolerant toward those who don't read, or listen or try to understand another's point of view.

I don't really understand the point of the thread - David Cameron is saying he wants more integration. As others have said, are there people who want less integration?

And without defining what integration is, does it mean much anyway?

Oh for Christ's sake. 'It's the patriachy'. How the hell do you think the patriachy was formed and has lasted for thousands of year? Because of organised bloody religion. And since the west has largely stopped following the extremer versions of it the rights of women have come an awfully long way.

Yes, women in Iran in the 70s had a great time. And why did it change? Oh yes, that would be because they became an Islamic Republic wouldn't it? But of course it has nothing to do with Islam.

How many women wear that Christian swimwear? Probably a few thousand in extreme sects in the US. How many Muslims have to cover up? Millions and millions. Are there any Christian countries which legislate to force women to wear those costumes? No there aren't. There are several Islamic countries where women are forced by law to cover parts of their bodies. As for women in their underwear on magazines, I'd far rather live in a country where that happened than live in a country where that happened than where a women could be sent to jail for 'indecency' for wearing a tight low cut dress in a video as happened recently in Egypt.

Or live in a country where homosexuality is illegal, homosexuals are persecuted and sometimes it's punishable by death.

The South African state doesn't collude in rape because of the religious and cultural attitudes of the country. The Pakistani state does. Do you realise that in Pakistan DNA is inaddmissable or only usable as supplementary evidence because the hard scientific fact it provides are not allowed to supersede Islamic law on rape cases? And that rape can't happen if there are no witnesses apparently?

Honestly, some people will say or do anything to justify such behaviour, and sadly these days exactly the same people who would once have been expected to challenge such awful behaviour now champion it because they are so desperate never, ever to allow anyone to think anything negative about any Muslims.

Whether, you really need to learn to express yourself more clearly. It's not just me that didn't read your OP in the way you had intended.

I haven't called you a bigot. But there were a few posters on this thread who demonstrated that they are though. How can I try to understand your point of view when I have little idea of what that actually is?

And I ask again, why start a thread like this when you know so little about the subject?

Wouldn't it be odd if I started a thread about cars when I have very little knowledge about them and then started to argue with people about the subject when they know more than I do?

Something that occurs to me, ourdear is how much choice your 'average' Muslim has over whether or not to be a Muslim.

I work with a family who had to leave their home country because they converted from Muslim to a very particular form of Christianity (the name escapes me). They were subject to the most extreme persecution any have been accepted into the UK as asylum seekers.

I wonder what percentage of Muslims ever consider not being as an option (there are probably a percentage of Muslims who are the 'church of england' of the Muslim faith - they just kind of join because that's what happens and never question it? I guess?) Then there must be some who question it, but have no power to leave - or the consequences would be so massive. I'm not sure if there is a parallel in Christian based faiths - maybe some of the more evangelical American sects?

I'm meandering because I'm thinking aloud...

Actually Leader there is some decent evidence that the patriarchy is to do with the start of fixed agriculture. Before that, in hunter gatherer societies, gathering provided more of the calories so it behooved the men to be quite nice to the women. After fixed agriculture, being strong and guarding the harvest became important so muscle and aggression got you more. Money made it worse, and yes, religion too.

For the millionth time, of course support for Sharia Law is an issue, Pakistan is not a shining beacon of equality and ISIS aren't kittens. But we have the power to do something about equality in the UK and that isn't just a case of standing, pointing at Muslims and saying, "look, it's all their fault". Clearing up the array of pedophiles and rapists that run politics, the media and the Church would be a great start.

OurDear speaks the truth. Most muslims who are trying to get to the UK are not coming here because we emulate islamic state nor to convert the UK to Islam. Most of them want more money and more chances for their chidlren because Western democracy works and is fair and Islamic states are backward and discriminatory.

We just have to be careful about the few radicals in our midst. I am not too bothered about them leaving to kill each other abroad as long as we don't allow them back in.

Why is it only the muslims that are having a problem integrating ?

What, all of them? I don't think so. Somali Muslims? Malaysian Muslims? Bengalis, Pakistanis, Indians, Arabs, Bosnians, Nigerians? Who?

And who says they are the only people 'having problems integrating'? Go to Lincolnshire and ask the Eastern Europeans there how easy it is to integrate. Or the Portuguese in Peterborough, or wherever it was, who had threats and their windows put in after the Portuguese football team beat England.

And, in relation to any group having difficulties integrating, how do we know (i) they are to blame for these difficulties; and (ii) the difficulties are caused by the fact that they are Muslims and not any other factor like non-religious cultural differences, poverty, lack of education, racism (theirs or anyone else's) or some other factor?

No one will make the situation better without careful and honest analysis that takes a long hard look at recent history as well as the present, including white hostility to newcomers as well as the faults of the newcomers themselves. Yet again I see no evidence that any politician or commentator actually has the appetite for that.

Integration like relationships takes both sides to make an effort.

We can bang on about Muslims integrating all we want but lets be honest if a group of Asian men rocked up to a small village pub how welcome would they be made to feel?

If you look at the Christisn blogosphere, 'modest' clothing is pretty mainstream.

On the other hand I don't think every Muslim teenager in the UK is rushing to join ISIS. Even if they are, they weren't 30 years ago, yet they still had the same Koran.

You could go back in time and get rid of the Koran tomorrow - extremists would still flourish in the right conditions. They would just find a different book.

I live ten minutes from cheetham hill in Manchester.
Integration is DEFINITELY not working
I wouldn't go through there on my own now , it is a ghetto

Indeed. Invented by men pretending there is a God to keep women in check.

Run any thread for more than dozen pages and you'll have some idiot claim it's a feminist issue and that men are to blame.

Is that not sometimes true though Ellie - or are you not a believer in the patriarchy?

And I ask again, why start a thread like this when you know so little about the subject?

Perhaps in the hope that I might learn something worthwhile YouTheCat?
I can forever live in hope I suppose

Well, I learned something.

Personally, I'd have worded things differently.

I suspect many of the criticisms of Islam are genuinely and rightly about the problems women face under that religion and some other religions. There are of course feminists in Islam fighting to show that the Koran is about equality and that it is men who have misconstrued against the will of God that equality. The koran also says men should cover up but men have not interpreted that remotely fairly.

Fairness is an ideal. Nobody ever said that it was necessary. The Tories are making a popular case for the notion that it's not necessary at all. One of the things you'll always notice about unfairness, is that it's normally promoted by the people who are doing most well of of the status quo. But, ironically, that's not always true. You do also get victims promoting their misfortunes, which is a bit puzzling.

Personally, I'd have worded things differently.

Sorry my literary education is not up to your exacting standards

Oh ffs, I wasn't even being sarky.

If I'd wanted to know something, I would have put it differently.

I haven't resorted to personal attacks so why all the passive aggression?

I would perhaps have said :

'I come from an exclusively white British village so am not best placed to hold an opinion based on personal experience. However, David Cameron's recent speech about 'integration not working' puzzles me because if you listen to the media, it seems this has been obvious for a while. AIBU to ask your experience of integration, in your community'