David Cameron has finally admitted that "integration is not working"

[WhetherOrNot]

AIBU to think that he should have cottoned on about 10 years ago, not now when it is so glaringly obvious as to be an embarrassment for everyone?

Cameron had destroyed the welfare system. He is destroying the NHS. This is just a tactic to distract people. At the expense of the millions of Muslims in this country.

The only countries on the planet where there is a death penalty for giving up your religions are... wait for it - surprise surprise 9 Muslim countries

But many British Muslim families have been living here for decades. You can't equate what some Muslim countries do with what British Muslims believe.

They will catch up but their basic belief system is backward...
... our superior Western liberal values.

That is just as racist as anything anyone else has posted on MN. You can dress up racism in whatever flowery language you like, but bigotry is still bigotry, and we only have our parents to blame for it. They brought us up that way.

*The impression I get is that your views are based on what you have read or seen on TV.8

That's the problem. A lot of posters are just spouting the same BS they read in their Daily Mail. People are so easy to manipulate with the press, because most are unable to think beyond what they have been told to think by their televisions and their red-tops.

Tell them, 'The Muslims are coming!' and all of a suddenly they couldn't give a shit that their benefits have been cut, their jobs are at risk, and their pensions have evaporated.

Still, if that's how important their incomes were, it's not like they needed any of it in the first place.

36% of British muslim 16-24 year olds believe if a Muslim converts to another religion they should be punished by death, news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6309983.stm

Small selection cases:

British-convert-from-Islam-endures-decades-of-persecution-by-local-Muslim-community

Life-Term-for-Father-Who-Killed-Daughter-for-Religious-Reasons

Muslim-apostates-threatened-over-Christianity.html

I wouldn't bother trying to convince your critics, MistressMia. To some here, your lack of tolerance for the intolerant is simply proof positive of some form of outrageous bigotry.

And SleepShake, only in the bizarre world of MN's strident left wing is some people getting less money from the Government equal to the 'destruction of the welfare system'.

I don't think it's wrong to say that wanting equality is bad like someone thinking homosexuality is wrong. Some views are just objectively right and luckily the west unlike most muslim countries allows me to say women and men are equal and there is no God. Those values are superior to those held in much of the East. That is not to say that Islam was not better than what was around it back in the day of course - when the prophet suggested men limit themselves to 4 wives it was because that's better than having loads you cannot look after and better than woman as slave or property although the slave bit seems to have been resurrected by Isis to ensure male needs are met in their times of war. However it had its day. It was appropriate to life in deserts where men owned women but simply damages people today in England. However I am happy to live in a country where we allow muslims and others to say there is a God and that women should cover or not or that men should cover or whatever. I will tolerate spouting of lies and inaccurate views and of invented Gods because I'm nice like that.

MistressMia again, (yawn). So if the BBC says it it must be true.

The BBC that during the civil war in Northern Ireland convenient referred to the religion of people in its new broadcasts to stir up trouble, while at the same time saying that it hadn't a clue why the crazy Irish were fighting about religion. The BBC that nowadays only ever mentions the "religion" of someone if they are Muslim and have committed a crime. Oh yes, the BBC is the font of all knowledge

MM of course is right, we all know that including those of us whose children go to school with muslims. These things are not secrets. They are the basics of the religion. Just as in the UK Christians used to prefer to be burned at the stake rather than renounce their religion and we worship martyrs who died for their faith. Religions do this kind of thing to people and the sooner we ditch them and persuade our countrymen to ditch them the better and luckiyl we sill have the freedom to exhort them to give up their faith and to support them if their unloving families would rather they killed or never saw their child again than live with such an appalling apostate.

36% of British muslim 16-24 year olds believe if a Muslim converts to another religion they should be punished by death, news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6309983.

Yet this bears no relation whatsoever to my experience over 5 decades of going to school with Muslims, working with Muslims and sending my children to school with Muslims in a multi cultural metropolitan area.

There is obviously a problem with radicalisation of young Muslims, but views on this thread come across as hatred for all Muslims, not based on personal experience but on news stories.

Atenco

I think your argument is weak - when your focus is to criticise MistressMia for quoting media reports and stating it's all untrue. I have never understood this need to close discussion down rather than discuss, or simply say nothing.

I don't believe in closing discussion down, Inkanta, but like merrymouse what MistressMia says and quotes bear no relation to my experience of Muslims, young and old. MistressMia* only ever appears on mumsnet to stir up hatred for Muslims.

'MistressMia only ever appears on mumsnet to stir up hatred for Muslims.'

I don't see that myself. She is of the opinion there is a problem with integration and delivers a good argument.

I live amongst Muslims. I don't base my views on what I see on the news and I also read widely in all media. most muslims in the UK are here because they make more money here and our legal system is better than Sharia and they are less likely to be bombed than in down town Iraq. However plenty of them are sexist to the core and homophobic. Many will say they love God more than their spouse or children and plenty would be prepared to die for their faith. None of us hate misguided sexist homophobics. We just want to communicate with them to such an extent that they cast off the yoke of religious oppression and let the scales fall from their eyes and see the true right path of Western liberalism which of course will happen as that is the global trend. There is much to hope for.

MM quotes good sources and is much respected. I have never seen anything she has posted which is hatred. It is just fact.

OurDearLeader In Nigeria, Boko Haram has a lot of Christian members in its pay and one can't help wondering where the pay comes from. In Syria the West choose to side with a group, sending arms and other resources to the group that ended up called itself ISIS, and that any Muslim could tell you acts against the mandates of the Qur'an.

If you look up that claim about Christians it comes from one report. The author of that report himself says '"But I have no doubt that the leadership of [Boko Haram] and its formal ideologies are Muslim, not Christian'.

Even if Boko Haram do use paid militia they are still Islamists and there aim is still to persecute Christians and even if they pay non-Muslims to do their dirty work they are still the people commissioning that result and they are Islamists. So it's a bit irrelevant really. Unless you're going to start claiming that Boko Haram are actually an undercover Christian sect trying to undermine Islam. Which wouldn't even surprise me on this forum TBH.

I'm not sure why you think 'Any Muslim' would tell me that it was against the Koran. For a start anybody with the slightest knowledge about Islam knows that what you call the 'mandates' of the Koran are disputed and different scholars, Muslims and Imams will tell you that the meanings are completely different things. And considering that support for extremism hovers at around 1/3 in this country according to reliable pollsters (and is probably higher because some will be reluctant to admit it), the idea that 'any Muslim' would say their acts were against the Koran is, frankly, bollocks.

Interesting that some tend to revert to personal attacks on those who make posts they dislike - also that they're often keen to parrot "anecdotes aren't data/evidence" but then readily share their own, presumably in the hope that their anecdote is somehow of more value

One of the reasons I find MistressMia's posts valuable is that she'll be frank where something is a purely personal experience, but when presenting things as facts she posts the relevant evidence. Of course evidence can occasionally be wrong, but when so much of it points in a particular direction it surely becomes harder to contest it - and insults do nothing to improve the credibility of the callers, no matter how much they wish it would

MerryMouse if you read back over my posts you'll see that I have actually said that I lived alongside Muslims in some areas, particularly Turkish and Kurdish people, but also Iranian and some African Muslims and those communities got along well with the people they lived alongside.

But that doesn't change the fact that there is a hell of a lot of evil being committed all over the world in the name of Islam and a lot of people in this country subscribe to the same view as those committing these evil acts.

I never really understand the the arguments of some people on here. 'Well I met Mahmood's Mum at school and she seemed really nice so I think we should ignore the oppression of women, gays being murdered, minorities being persecuted and killed, villages being massacred, girls being kidnapped, people being beheaded, and people being killed for leaving a religion or believing in it a bit wrong. Because she's really lovely and she gave me some sweets so there must be absolutely no problems with Islam'.

The most depressing thing about it is that an awful lot of people who would normally be expected to speak about this sort of thing (repression of minority religions, gays, women), University educated liberals; they've been utterly conned into supporting this sort of things because they've bought into the totally illogical thesis that the only people who can be nasty to other people or be bigoted, violent and oppressive are white people because we've been violent and oppressive in the past.

Overlooking inconvenient historical truths like the fact that Muslims have been involved in some pretty horrific massacres and wars, have had their own oppressive empires and actually started the African slave trade.

But hey, you just keep on thinking that the history of Islam is just one long fluffy love in with tambourines and ignore the fact that they've often proved themselves to be extremely violent, bigoted and oppressive themselves.

But hey, you just keep on thinking that the history of Islam is just one long fluffy love in with tambourines and ignore the fact that they've often proved themselves to be extremely violent, bigoted and oppressive themselves.

I don't, but then the history of Christianity, or even just plain old Europe, isn't fluffy either.

There are plenty of non-newsworthy Muslims.

I never really understand the the arguments of some people on here. 'Well I met Mahmood's Mum at school and she seemed really nice so I think we should ignore the oppression of women, gays being murdered, minorities being persecuted and killed, villages being massacred, girls being kidnapped, people being beheaded, and people being killed for leaving a religion or believing in it a bit wrong. Because she's really lovely and she gave me some sweets so there must be absolutely no problems with Islam'.

Yes, because British Muslims aren't people you grow up with or work and socialise with, they are strange veiled women with sweets!

It sounds like 2000 British Muslims have gone abroad to fight for or breed / provide sexual services for ISIS. Within the UK there is a problem of too closed off communities but we have always been fairly tolerant of those from the hassidic jews in London and Manchester etc to the Brethren and many others. I think we are a pretty tolerant society. In the UK we have been more bombed by the Irish IRA in the last 50 years on home turf than Muslims. However we should not be complacent. We had 7/7 and there are more muslims in the UK who would be keener to be suicide bombers on British soil than most other groups I can think of at the moment so we do well to keep an eye on children. In fact it is parental responsibility we need here more than anything. Is your teenage boy happy adjusted and enthusiastic about a career or are you immersing him too much in religion and exposing him or allowing him to be exposed to radicals at the mosque or on line? Let the parent take responsibility perhaps not in the North Korean sense where they punish 3 generations if one family member errs but at least let the parents not blame and police, school or state. Let us look into ourselves first before blaming others.

It's not the going to join Daesh that's the problem. It's the coming back. In a liberal society people are free to scheme and plot and some will, whether they're bank robbers, IRA, Daesh supporters, you name it. There is one way to cut down the number of all kinds of plotters exponentially; set up a huge network of spies and secret police and have a series of show trials where suspects are killed horribly.

PM me for details.

If this country was ever going to turn into a police state, it would have happened by now you muppet.

I think the clue is in the title liberal society, dear.

Indeed. A liberal society where people aren't in actuality allowed to plot and scheme because the police and intelligence services take a dim view of that sort of thing and you end up getting arrested and then jailed if proved guilty. What's your point?