to insist our rules are stuck to?

[Nabuma]

Got our niece round for a sleepover. She's lovely but a handful with it. All the dc have made an almighty mess. At one stage dn sat on the floor and kicked her legs about, spreading Lego about the whole of the kitchen/diner. Not in a tantrum (she's nearly 5) but just for the sake of it. She can be a bit destructive at times. She was mildly admonished for this and stopped. But we've been coaxing her to tidy it up since lunchtime.

We took a break and went to the park and when we came back dh and I said that all dc were to tidy and whoever did got an icecream after tea. She has refused to tidy. So our dc have had an ice-cream but she has not been allowed one. She's now sobbing in the next room. I feel bad as she is not so used to hard and fast rules at home but dh has put his foot down. Awbu?

[ThumbWitchesAbroad]

Jeezus, she drew blood with a scratch? Ouch! Don't blame you for not having her back until she's developed a few better behaviours, or ever if she doesn't manage it. I expect school will knock some of her attitudes down though.

[Bakeoffcake]

I know you didn't spend all afternoon tidying, I know you went to the park, I meant you let the whole thing drag on all afternoon. The tidying should have been finished before you went out.

My sister wasn't childless at the time of this incident, she had 2dds.

No I don't know anything about you- I was trying to give an example that whilst adults may think there rules are perfectly reasonable (my sisters DC followed her stupid rules) children not brought up in that household may think they are silly and decide not to follow them. It looks to me like your neice thought this about your (very reasonable) rule. Four year olds don't think like adults, if she doesn't tidy at home she'll think your tidying rule is ridiculous and IMO it's not your place to use food to try to get her to comply. Although you've now acknowledged you wouldn't do this again.

As far as the scratching goes, that isn't on and actually I would have a chat with her about that. You've made a big fuss about tidying but will do nothing about her drawing blood

[Velociraptor]

OP YWNBU with the ice cream. I find it odd the number of people on this thread referring to how you should treat a guest. She is a member of your family, not a guest, and it is right that she should be treated the same as your DC. The idea that it is a failure to have a child cry also baffles me. Children cry when things don't go their way, it is unavoidable if you are imposing any boundaries at all, and really doesn't do any harm.

I hope you do have her over again. She is still young, and it sounds like you are a good influence in her life.

[Bakeoffcake]

their

[mamadoc]

Is she usually as badly behaved as all that?
Are you having her because parents are on holiday/ at work?
Maybe she feels rejected and doesn't want to be there and is taking it out on you?
I would discipline 1st (naughty step or whatever you do), extract an apology and then I would take her aside and give her a hug and a chance to talk about it.

My dsis and I are close and we often have one another's kids over to stay. I don't think we ever discussed it but we are pretty clear that whoever's house it is it's their rules. I would (and I do) back them 100% in disciplining my DC even if I would not have done the same. You need to make sure you are on the same page as her parents on this stuff and have their back up before agreeing to have her for any length of time.

With the cousins on DH side we are not as close and I would be less confident on telling them off as I can't be sure how their parents will view it. Random friends on play dates if I don't know their parents too well then I either call them to pick up early or just get through it, tell the parents at drop off and make a mental note never to invite them back.

[mamadoc]

I would have absolutely disciplined her for the scratch.
You didn't see her do it but there is physical evidence and you heard her admit it!
I agree that you can't get into taking sides on 'x wouldn't let me play, y was mean to me'. I say briskly 'well perhaps you would like to play something else then' for those ones but drawing blood is a different matter.
Once my DS aged about 2 bit his cousin of the same age. I have almost never felt so mortified. There was a perfect circle of tooth marks on her chubby little arm and he was known to bite occasionally when frustrated. No-one saw it but it was pretty clear he had done it. He got time out and made to apologise and I made a big fuss of comforting her.

[redshoeblueshoe]

Nabuma - I think you did exactly the right thing yesterday. I'm sorry your dd got scratched. I'm amazed by some of the comments on this thread. You made it perfectly clear that your DB is aware of what happens in your house, and they decided it was fine for her to stay. for dd

[MayPolist]

She is too young to be staying with you or so long, poor little mite!

[Nabuma]

How long do you think she's been here Maypolist?

[OllyBJolly]

Geez - people aren't half making up what they don't know, then passing judgement!

I have loads of nieces and nephews. (just tried to count but gave up!) I've had them to stay for weeks at a time from age 2. In two weeks' time I'm taking an 8yr old and a 2yr old away on holiday for a week. When my own two were younger they would often stay with aunts, uncles, GPs. We're that kind of family. We all have different parenting styles - sometimes that causes issues, but overall we accept that the kids live with the rules of that house.

[MayPolist]

Who would offload their 2 yr old for weeks at a time?

[TheOracleofSelphie]

YABU

To use food as a reward/bribe is setting up lots of future problems. Bringing up a child isn't dog training.

I think it also unreasonable to expect a child of 4 to be able to instantly adapt to very different environment of rules than the one they are used to. If her parents haven't gone down that road, you won't manage to contradict that over the course of an afternoon. School might manage that- and reward systems like gold stars are a world away from feeding your own children ice cream whilst denying a visiting child one. You are then surprised that she is upset and resentful towards the children who were "rewarded".

You've also upset, and, in later posts, demonised a small child. It comes across that you've done that to legitimise your earlier position, in an attempt to deflect some of the criticism from other posters. Well done.

[nooka]

But this is a child that the OP has presumably known since birth, and who has stayed with her on many previous occasions so it's not about one afternoon's interaction is it? It's not exactly unusual for different households to have different rules and the OP's request to help tidy up was a fairly straightforward routine one that this child has almost certainly come across before and will again.

[SewingAndCakes]

I completely agree with Nooka - I'd relax my usual rules a little for a visiting friend of my children, and maybe not invite them back if I wasn't happy. With a relative or close friends child I would expect them to follow my rules.

[TheOracleofSelphie]

Nooka That's how the OP has reported it, but do you really think that's necessarily entirely the case?

Do you think that a four year old who sees the OP and her family occasionally is being unreasonable by being upset and confused when she is treated very differently from the OP's children?

Is this the only way she is treated/judged differently from the OP's children?

[nooka]

But she was being treated exactly the same as the OP's children! All were told that if they helped tidy they would get an ice cream, and those that helped got the treat. The niece chose to be defiant and lost out. Then she was upset, and then she calmed down and nice things continued to happen. To me this is normal life for a four year old.

Now if the niece lived with the OP all the time perhaps she would have the opportunity to figure out better ways to get her to behave, as treating all children the same doesn't always work (it certainly didn't for my two) but I don't see anything in the OP's posting to suggest that she was being unfair. For example she didn't come down hard after the scratching event as she didn't witness it first hand.

[LavenderLeigh]

But she isn't treated differently - she was treated the same.
All the DC were to,d to tidy up and that if they did this they would get an ice cream.
The other DC did what they were told
She refused to do as she was told and was given several opportunities and lots of coaxing.
The DC who tidied up got an ice cream.

Totally fair treatment. It would have been unfair to the other DC to see her getting rewarded for her bad behaviour.
She hasn't suffered any harm by not getting an ice cream.

[LavenderLeigh]

The child is nearer 5 than 4, Maypolist. Not 2!!!!!!

And many parents have no choice but to leave their DC with family at times, e.g. Another child ill in hospital. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Stop judging and making absolute statements when you don't know the facts.

[Nabuma]

maypolist you're completely undermining your position by getting several facts wrong. Facts that have been addressed in many posts by myself. She's 4 yo, 5 in less than two months. It was two days, not weeks. Good grief. How is this so difficult for some posters to grasp?!
oracle if we're not going to trust other posters then this whole exercise is pointless, no? I've been honest, upfront and answered every question asked of me transparently. I've several times conceded that mistakes have been made on my part and acknowledged that this has been a learning curve for me. If it helps clarify any, yes, I have known dn since birth. We visit each others houses as a family and stay over very frequently. We take holidays together. I am very familiar with bil/sil's parenting style. They often use the same rewards/punishments as me and dh, the only difference being that they sometimes don't follow through and this is not down to anything other than them sometimes wanting an easy life. In the same way that a lot of parents give in after 5mins of tears etc because they've perhaps had a rough day. What I'm trying to say is the general ideology/principle of our parenting is similar but sometimes they struggle to be consistent with their dd. I do too sometimes, don't we all?! They are equally familiar with our parenting too and obviously happy for her to stay round. They've not dumped her on me out of necessity but because we're a close family and the dc for the most part enjoy each other's company. Also, I really haven't demonised my dn, please see the multiple occasions here I've pointed out how lovely she is... I'm getting so bored of repeating basic facts. If you're going to comment, please pay proper attention! And with regards to using food as a reward oracle I have addressed that several times too. I won't be doing it again as I've realised this isn't ideal. Have you always been a perfect parent? I'm still learning.

[RiverTam]

To be fair, maypolist's comment is referring to Olly's directly above her post. It's perfectly clear if you're paying proper attention, OP.

[Nabuma]

Yes, you're right river My apologies maypolist. Anyway, I am finally done now as this has taken up too much of my time and Dh is waiting to watch a film with me. Night all!

[MargotLovedTom]

I am coming to this too late but OMG at the level of hysteria on here about a four year kid having a bloody tantrum because she didn't get her own way. OP you were totally NBU and ignore the voices of doom who say your DN will NEVER. EVER. FORGET being denied an ice cream at the age of four.