A school trip is over subscribed, a draw will take place, there's a possibility that only one twin will be picked.

[MyballsareSandy]

AIBU to think that a set of twins should be counted as one in this situation? Or is that completely unfair on the rest of the class? I really can't make my mind up.

I don't want to say too much but it's a massive trip, we aren't talking about a day out. Ten days away abroad, long flight.

It hasn't happened yet so I'm possibly worrying about nothing, but if one is left out they'll be so upset. Year 9.

BathtimeFunkster The draw takes place and there are two places left. One twin is drawn. And the other gets a bye and the others lose their chance.

Not on, is it?

OP Keep us informed!

I can't believe anyone thinks it is acceptable to treat a twin as being more important than any other child in the draw.

Sorry to say that as a mother of twins I do think you are being unreasonable. I completely understand how hard it would be (for you and for your girls) as my girls are identical and definitely have a much closer bond than with other siblings - they really are THAT close. BUT - that's not the point in this, the point is that there are limited spaces and the school can only take 75% of the people who applied so 25% will miss out and I can bet that all 25% of them have been looking forward to it for years and will be gutted to be left out. If the draw takes place and one gets a place and the other doesn't then your girls should make the decision as to whether they take up the place or not - not you - they are 13 and I'm sure are old enough to take responsibility for those decisions themselves.

Andrew - I think the deal would have to be that once 29 had been picked, the double ticket would be withdrawn.

That would very slightly reduce the twins' chances relative to their classmates, but maybe by a small enough margin that it would be worth it to remove the chance of one going and not the other.

Bathtime That would be fair but I don't think it's what the OP had in mind!

I am a teacher. Sometimes, in cases like this, we will discreetly make the lottery a little less random than it might otherwise be...

As a Mum of 9 yo twins, I'm on the fence with this one.
There will be times they have to do things without the other.
Twice this year DT1 has gone on trips that DT2 hasn't, one was pure luck (tickets handed down to lower year for a trip that didn't have enough from the year above and he was picked due to his work)
The other is reward based for all students, for various things, one being going up 5 sublevels in lessons, DT2 has missed out by 1 sublevel and therefore can't go on the trip even though he has tried his hardest and met every other target but that's another story and I am watching his heartbreak as DT1 gets to go on a day out and he doesn't. It's very hard for him, me and DT1 (he feels guilty he gets to go, and also like he can't be excited for achieving it)
I do feel it's nicer/easier for both twins to go (especially when they are super close like mine are) BUT on the other hand, they need to experience the fact that life isn't always fair.

I do think a first come first serve basis is more appropriate in this case. Parents wouldn't have to make sure they are first in line at the office as a PP said, at 13 the children are surely old enough to remember to hand a form in...

Dolores In whose favour? The twins', the only's, the well-behaved child's?

Come on, spill the beans!

I am a teacher. Sometimes, in cases like this, we will discreetly make the lottery a little less random than it might otherwise be...

So, you think a twin is more special than any other child?

at 13 the children are surely old enough to remember to hand a form in...

HahahahahahA... [wheeze]

How exciting, I've never had so many replies to a thread .

We will find out tomorrow.

First come first served is a lot less likely to be fair on families for whom the level of financial investment required is a big deal. So that would just reinforce the priviledge that trips like this are justified on the basis of levelling.

A draw is perfectly fair.

Haven't read the full thread as I have had a hard day and am chilling out in t'garden with hoe, rake, trowel and brandy-thing.

But when I joined girl guides a few decades years ago, on my first day I had to enter a draw with everyone else. I won the one and only prize which was.....wait for it.......a gliding lesson with an instructor. I was 11.

Shat myself that night. Shat myself being driven as passenger to the airfield a few weeks later (Dad was an ex-Para so thought it was cool). Shat myself in glider. Shat myself when glider turned over on landing. Shat myself typing this know. (Though I have to say when you are up there in the clouds and space it is f amazing - its the human bits on land that are crap).

Thing I remember most was the draw and the instructors arguing between them whether or not I should win as I was the newbie or whether it should be a fair draw. But, hey consequences.

So, OP. Be careful what you wish for.

Andrew, it was a suggestion made up thread by one of our helpful maths -nerds graduates.

The sums proved it to be a fair suggestion.

I wonder how well it would work in a multi-twin year group?

Seems a bit unfair. Mind you my twins see school trips as a punishment and theft of free time ! So don't assume yours both want the trip. Recently one of mine was picked for a prestigious school thing - a sort of trip and not the other and I did say to the twins did they mind? Not at all they said - we are different people and in fact the one chosen rejected the chance anyway. That one who tends to do better at school than his twin won no school prizes and his twin two - which again felt a bit unfair to me but they were both absolutely fine with it and in fact the one who managed to avoid prize day felt he was the one who had won the prize - all those boring speeches avoided.

I (very selfishly) like first come - first served because I am organised and have a husband who works from home. So between us we can always manage to be quickly in - our high school has online booking.

No way would I pretend it is fair though. What about families with no internet at home? Jobs where they can't just log in whenever they want, etc?

One trip my son went on sold out in seven minutes!

My son's primary school did everything by draw and there was one very pushy twin mother. She must have persuaded them to always pick both. I don't know of a single draw for any event they didn't both "win". My son won none ever.

That is not fair either.

I think maybe a combination is the key. i.e. prioritising people who have missed out on previous opportunities for future ones.

Andrew I'm racking my brains to think of a comparable situation to remember what we did.

I've certainly made sure that a kid who had had a bereavement and several other shitty things happen to him got a place on an oversubscribed trip.

I've made sure that a child whose parents wouldn't or couldn't take him to the theatre got a place on an oversubscribed theatre trip so that he could see a live performance for his GCSE Drama coursework.

The only vaguely comparable example with multiples was a few years ago, when half of a year group were given a particular opportunity as part of a research project. There were triplets in this year group and one of them was in the 'wrong' side, so he was moved over.

We do have an annual rewards trip for which pupils have to qualify with good behaviour and punctuality, but these criteria are clearly published in advance. I've never thrown a ballot for reasons of behaviour; sorry to disappoint

Am I the only one who loathes things organised by the school to which some pupils can go and others can't?
I think it's hideous, be it because of oversubscription or cost.
There is no true fair system, be it draw, first come, take turns. All should be able to go.

Thank you Dolores - I just love true confessions!

Lweji It's no good saying All should be able to go when the number of teachers limits the numbers who can go.

Oh Bathtime - now you are spoiling me!

Two ways I can think of to test in extremis:-

The first is to imagine there was a group of 30 who for some reason couldn't possibly be apart. So agreed that only get to go if space for all and put on one ballot paper. So 11 ballot papers and "group of 30" only get to go if drawn first! So a 1 in 11 chance of going with the remaining 10 having a 10/11 chance of going. (At which point there would be 20 spare spaces and presumably the 30 would all be falling over themselves to point out that actually they are not that bothered about the other 29 anyway.)

The other is that of the 40 there were 19 pairs of "inseparable" and two "sad singletons". (Please refrain from commenting on which you think that I am in. )

This is really interesting because assuming the same "both or none" rules the odds of both "sad singletons" getting picked is 15/16. Because if either one is picked then the other one is too automatically as 30 is an even number so you can either take both or none.

Or nobody goes.

OK, I organise lots of secondary school trips.

The 'first come' penalising parents on low income is a thing you can work around by putting a token deposit on the the online system (we use ParentPay), to be followed up fairly swiftly with another payment OR an email/call to the Finance Office asking for a more flexible arrangement - all explained on the letter.

Letters of interest are sent out explaining when the trip will be going 'live' on ParentPay. Students in receipt of Pupil Premium are offered a separate letter explaining they get 50% discount. The letter goes out a few days before the trip goes on ParentPay - students whose parent/guardian will not be able to find even the token deposit on that date are offered the opportunity to contact Finance Office in advance. It doesn't happen often, but we've set the system to accept £1 deposits before now...

I have colleagues who prefer to organise a draw, but IME it causes further rancour. You're going to get someone's parent screeching at you down the phone whatever you do wrt over-subscribed trips, but it's harder to argue with a 'first come' system than it is with a draw that parents generally suspect you of fiddling. As it happens we don't - we're very upfront with parents if their child is not being considered for a place!

As for running over subscribed trips in the first place...we generally do fit everyone in, by means of careful booking & sometimes waiting lists. But it sometimes has to be called before you get the deposits in - you ask for expressions of interest in a trip & get 45 responses. So - knowing some will not actually be able to commit - you book it for 40 kids & 4 members of staff. If another 10 kids then want to go (& you can strongarm a fifth colleague!) the travel company may be able to increase the numbers - they certainly will if they can, to up their profits. However, what you can't do is book, say, 43 on the trip - the company only gives you one staff place per 10 kids so your staff/student ratios will be buggered.

Also, I run an annual 2 day trip for 90 kids. There are 180 in the year group & this one's always over subscribed. But to meet demand I'd have to book 135 (so it'd be 3 coaches not 2), which then means 14 staff members - imagine the supply bill on that one. Plus muggins here would have to be in charge of them all walking across London, in a busy restaurant & theatre, in a chain hotel, at a large theme park & at several service stations. Frankly, me taking responsibility for one coachload & my mate taking one other is as much as my nerves can stand!

So - well, it's logistics, I'm afraid - that & a diminishing pool of teaching staff willing to get involved.

Anyway, I think YABslightyU, OP, but I think you've agreed that already. . But I'd avoid the situation in the first place if it were my trip by going 'first served' so you either got them both booked on, or neither.

I'd avoid the situation in the first place if it were my trip by going 'first served' so you either got them both booked on, or neither.

Unless the twins are numbers 30 and 31 in the race to pay a deposit first.

I have twins and an older one. I think school is fair but as a mum I would talk to them and say that they either both go or neither. I understand the thing about them being individuals but your family life also needs to be bearable and fair. Unless people have twins it's really hard to truly understand the dynamics. I certainly didn't understand. People regularly give me their thoughts and I have to justify things like the fact they are wearing the same coats and aren't I worried about their individuality - no, they individually chose the same coats. Was I supposed to demand one choose her less favourite coat? Anyway, I digress.

Do what works for your dc but I don't think the school can be expected to give special treatment. Fingers crossed they both get to go.

Mumoftwo - quite the contrary, it is you who is spoiling me

Sums are fun, especially is someone else does them for you and then turns them into stories. :)