to give a limited number of religious vetos for school trips

[mini321]

My DS's school is trying to organise a school trip to the far east to encourage the development of new language courses they have put on offer recently.

The person organising quite a complicated trip is being asked by a number of parents about not flying on certain days, not using public transport on those days when away, asking that all food follows religious rules for their children - I feel the organiser will spend more time accommodating this group to the detriment of the trip as a whole.

My memories of trips to the Far East is all about the food because it is so different, seems a shame half the group will miss out but that is their concern I guess.

AIBU to suggest we put a limit to the number of restrictions? (slightly tongue in cheek here ) but would be interested if any other parents have encountered anything similar?

Maybe the atheists should get some protection from too many restrictions foisted upon them.

TTWK - the problem with your argument is that it plays into the hands of the right wing. Most "progressive" Jewish groups in this country, certainly the anti-Israel ones and those who are claiming that their voices are never heard (though they get a lot of space in the Guardian) derive their support from people who observe very little and believe even less, but still consider themselves Jewish. By saying they are not, you are taking a pretty reactionary line.

Of course someone can have a different genetic make up and consider themselves the same race. I can think of any number of people who describe themselves as English, regardless of skin colour or origin, same as I do. And if I'd been adopted and raised by Pakistani or Jamaican parents, in those countries, despite my colouring I'd identify as Asian or Jamaican. For the purposes of classification or genetic risk etc I'd still be Caucasian but most of us don't identify ourselves based on classification. The fact my DNA indicates a strong likelihood of Celtic/ Gaelic descent with maybe some Anglo Saxon, gives me no more right to identify as English than someone who's DNA proves Caribbean descent. And I fail to see why Judaism is any different.

If you identify as Jewish from a race and culture perspective rather than a religious one, do you still bother with all the rules about what you can eat, clothes you can wear, cutting bits off babies etc ?

To echo what another poster said, in 1930s Germany and Nazi-occupied Europe until the end of WWII CactusAnnie would have a cat in hell's chance of arguing that she wasn't Jewish because she didn't follow Judaism or that her children should be spared because their father wasn't Jewish.

He'd probably be shipped off to a concentration camp too if he didn't denounce them. He might have been spared a death camp though. They wouldn't.

Being Jewish is recognised as being a race not least because most born Jews share genetic links - I'm aware that I am expressing this inadequately but as I understand it, they spring from a fairly small genetic pool.

It really doesn't matter whether you agree or not. It just is.

I'm not a Jew but I can understand this concept and it doesn't upset my own sense of self.

I don't understand why some other people seem not to be able to do the same.

cutting bits off babies

My bingo card is almost full

lurkedforever the difference is that English is a nationality and one can identify as such without suggesting that one subscribes to a particular belief system. Whereas identifying as Jewish tends to bring with it the presumption ( particularly to the lay person) that one subscribes to that religion's beliefs. In my opinion there should be different terminology for those who are ethnically Jewish and those who are religiously Jewish. However both describe themselves as "Jews" and that is where the confusion arises. It's a problem of vocabulary, not ideology.

Coming a bit late to this, but just wanted to say that Jewish people are an ethnic group and thus a "race" in UK law as well as US law - this led to the Jewish Free School's admission policy being found to be directly discriminatory on grounds of race by our Supreme Court.

ukscblog.com/case-comment-r-e-v-governing-body-of-jfs-ors-2009-uksc-15/

I see it differently jessie, possibly because the people I know who are Jewish vary from 'yeah I'll get married in a synagogue to keep the I laws happy' to very religious. Orthodox Jews admittedly I'm more acquainted with rather than knowing. So I suppose my impression and presumption is that it's less about religion, even if for others it's not

In law, of course Jews are a race. Anti Semitism is covered under the race relations act, as it should be. So are many other religions. And nationalities. Discrimination against someone being Pakistani or Indian would also be covered under race relations. No doubt about that.

But everyone knows nationality is not a race (apart from Lurkedforever who seems to think English is a race.) In evolutionary and biological terms, of course English or Pakistani aren't races. It's ridiculous.

Is Twiggy the same race as Mo Farrah? Both 100% English, without doubt.

As I said at the outset, there are only 5 races within the human species, and Jewish, Islamic or English ain't among them.

Anti Semitism is covered under the race relations act, as it should be. So are many other religions. And nationalities. Discrimination against someone being Pakistani or Indian would also be covered under race relations. No doubt about that.

Really? You might be muddling stuff up there. Being a Pakistani or Indian is not a race.

You might be talking about UK law against blasphemy, which covers Christianity and no other faith.

TTWK - the problem with your argument is that it plays into the hands of the right wing.

What utter rubbish. It's the exact opposite. It's the far right that have persecuted the Jews, on the ground that they are a "race" apart. Completely ignorant that Jews are a diverse group. There are Jews of all colours and nationalities. Many are of Eastern European origin, and are linked genetically, many are not.

The Nazis believed the Jews were a race. I am arguing against that position. How is that playing into the hands of the right wing?

English, Welsh and Scottish people have separate nationalities under the Act (as interpreted by the courts) but are not separate ethnic groups. Being English is a nationality, which attracts slightly different protection from a race. Being Jewish is not a nationality, but is being part of an ethnic group.

Sorry, that last sentence is garbled but hopefully the meaning is clear.

Really? You might be muddling stuff up there. Being a Pakistani or Indian is not a race.

Of course they are not. That's my point. If you refused to employ someone because they were Pakistani, that would be an offence under race relations act, even though it's not a race. Same with discrimination against Jews, Muslims etc.

The race relations act deals with discrimination against people on grounds of colour, nationality, religion.

TTWK, the Race Relations Act has been repealed and replaced with the Equality Act. The RRA did not cover religion; that was dealt with in separate legislation. Now all types of discrimination (race, religion, sextet, sexual orientation, age etc) fall under the Equality Act. It is right that this Act, like the RRA, sub - divides "race discrimination" into discrimination on grounds of colour, nationality, race and ethnic and national origins. Jewish people have been held under the Act to be a race in the sense of being an ethnic group- not a religion.

Sex, not sextet!

It's the far right that have persecuted the Jews, on the ground that they are a "race" apart. Completely ignorant that Jews are a diverse group. There are Jews of all colours and nationalities. Many are of Eastern European origin, and are linked genetically, many are not. The Nazis believed the Jews were a race. I am arguing against that position.

So if only the Jews could have said they were just like everyone else people would have accepted it and they could have avoided 3,000 odd years of persecution.

Brilliant. Why didn't they think of that?

And they have the cheek to call themselves clever.

ttwk I would have thought it was perfectly clear I was using that as an analogy to simplify the matter for those on the thread that seem to have difficulty understanding certain concepts, i.e that your race is, within most reasonable bounds, whatever you identify with and not what an online randomer decides on your behalf it is.

Stop saying there are 5 races like it's scientific fact rather than bullshit pseudo science. There is no scientific definition for race. The five categories you list are social constructs and have fuck all to do with science. More importantly they just happen to be the ones that are currently in vogue and the list can change. Ethnicity is also not a scientific term and ethnicity is as much to do with shared culture as shared genes.

TTWK is the Anti-Jewish Comedian.

Bit like the Anti-Christ but not as funny.

Ahh yes, that will be the root cause of nazism, kkk, all racial genocide. Their racial classification was a bit skewed. Not their minds, or the fact dickheads can always find a cause. Oh no it was just their flawed classification