to give a limited number of religious vetos for school trips

[mini321]

My DS's school is trying to organise a school trip to the far east to encourage the development of new language courses they have put on offer recently.

The person organising quite a complicated trip is being asked by a number of parents about not flying on certain days, not using public transport on those days when away, asking that all food follows religious rules for their children - I feel the organiser will spend more time accommodating this group to the detriment of the trip as a whole.

My memories of trips to the Far East is all about the food because it is so different, seems a shame half the group will miss out but that is their concern I guess.

AIBU to suggest we put a limit to the number of restrictions? (slightly tongue in cheek here ) but would be interested if any other parents have encountered anything similar?

Maybe the atheists should get some protection from too many restrictions foisted upon them.

If the school is either Habs or City, they are the only 2 I can think of with a significant orthodox contingent, I can't believe that this is the first time they have come up against this and should have a fair idea how they manage it.

Most major cities throughout the world including the Far East have a Chabad House which is an ultra orthodox outreach facility and they will be able to supply kosher food and sabbath hospitality Would this be true in China, though? Possibly now, but the government's relationship with religion hasn't been an accommodating one thus far.

It is tough, actually. The enormous cultural issues with food do make this a difficult issue. I traveled in China and food is VERY important.

www.chabadbeijing.com/templates/articlecco_cdo/aid/70372/jewish/Shabbat-Services-and-Meals.htm A quick Google. At least in Beijing...

You can prepare for a trip to suit requirements, but there is still quite a risk that food won't be prepared with enough understanding to be kosher. If you think about the problems that vegetarians have in some countries - vegetable soup, but the stock turns out to be meat; salad, but with added bits of ham; etc and those issues happen in Europe, Chinese caterers are likely to be even less aware of these issues and pork is a big thing in China afaik.

Given the risk of being served non-kosher food, I'd be surprised if anyone who really cared about it would send their child on this trip, no matter how hard you planned to meet their needs.

And I don't think it reasonable to add significant expense to the cost of the trip for those who don't have these restrictions.

I wonder if parents are asking the question to see the response but won't send their children in the end. It would be highly unusual for families who are so observant to send their children on a trip where they weren't 100% certain that the catering in particular met their needs and if they are asking questions about travel and transport on Shabbat then just eating vegetarian is unlikely to cut it

I have to agree with Cactus. I still don't get your coyness about the religion.

But the people at the school who commissioned the organiser knew the student population they were dealing with.

"" on hearing all then requests the organiser was very keen to do their best to accommodate but I did feel for him and also think devoting energy to planning the activities would be better placed for all""

He actually might enjoy the challenge.

I've encountered attitudes similar to yours, when my DD attended a "S&L Unit", in a mainstream school. When we (SN Parents) went to one of the meetings, we were asked outright "Well who said it had to be inclusive?", Erm the LA, the Law and the Equality Act.

It's do-able and should of been thought of initially.

But yes, agree about reasonable accommodation. Parents are asking questions, they'll decide on the basis of the answers. The school may limit the range of options from the organiser put forward, to take account of cost, meeting trip objectives for all etc.

You seem concerned that all these accommodations will have a negative impact on other participants but you've given no examples, just negative speculation.

eversobusy I think that is the case - given the food requirements I don't think we'll be able to get the numbers required tbh, it is an expensive trip for many too.

Cactus if you interpret my posts as "frankly racist" then you must experience a lot of racism - the whole point of keeping things general was to avoid a descent to that level but you were determined to get there.

Am I the only one thinking cactus has got some serious issues?

There's nothing. Wrong with what the op said. I would be wondering would my child have to waste a day of the trip on the sabbath, were they planning to eat out at different types of restaurants but now they won't, etc.

As a parent I would be wondering how and if my child would be negatively affected, I'm not saying I would storm the school and demand that the Jewish kids get left behind but to wonder about it on a forum isn't exactly a problem.

Op - I would wait to see what concessions are made then see whether it's worth you child going for the money.

I loathe religion so find it sad to see religion negatively other people who haven't fallen pray to it (at this point though we don't know how or if it will negatively affect the trip yet, you need to find out what alterations are being made)

NoName "Am I the only one thinking cactus has got some serious issues?"

No ????

Thanks for all the sensible replies tonight - I will wait it out to see the final trip schedule and decide then.

And I'm not sure I can think of a logical scenario for a religious observance that directly conflicts another from a school trip point of view.

Goodness cactus calm it down!

Bloody hell Cactus you are getting very angry. The OP is talking about people being accommodating about people's religious observation. About some people's children having their trip curtailed in some ways by others' religious observation. Not stringing people up by their thumbs for being religious.

I understand why people are equating it with people with SEN or disabilities. I disagree that it is the same.

I'm a bit confused. If the country being visited is China, couldn't you a) go for a lot of vegetarian dishes, and b) when in restaurants buy a range of dishes that everyone chooses from, and then have children select the things that suit their requirements?

I've been to China a couple of times and always went mostly vegetarian anyway - managed to avoid the, hmm, dreaded traveller's stomach so I'd generally recommend that anyway to friends who are also going.

The trick with asking for vegetarian food is to learn how to say: "no pork, no chicken, no beef, no fish" to cover all bases - "I'm a vegetarian" can receive blank looks but listing all of the different types of meat helps.

I don't think avoiding certain foods should be a problem (or be to the detriment of anyone on the trip), but I guess that sourcing specific foods required for certain observances might be difficult.

arranging an itinery to fit with religious observances should not effect everyone unduly. giving some people the option of staying within the accomodation, or visits within walking distance would be a matter of choosing the appropriate hotel location and itinery.

food, on the other hand, would seem to be much more of an issue. have you asked the parents what their requirements are and how they would go about fulfilling them if they were organising a trip of this nature.

i'm jewish, and went to a school with a large number of jewish pupils (NLCS)

i went on plenty of school trips and it wasnt a problem for me or for more orthodox pupils.

Regarding food, I ate vegetarian. I don't remember knowing anyone who couldn't eat veggie food, although school lunches were not compulsory the majority of pupils ate them.
Pure veggie food will not be easy in some areas, but tour groups that deal regularly with british school will be used to this and will come up with a veggie alternative. It may not be that nutritious (think plain rice and veggies, no protein) but they wont starve.

For those who could not eat that, i think the parents will need to come up with a sensible arrangement. This could involve e.g. booking kosher meals to be delivered to their hotel from a local kosher caterer.

Regarding shabbat, ideally they could swap things around so that day is a local tour of the place with no travelling, but only if this does not mean cancelling a planned excursion which would disadvantage other children. otherwise i would suggest an alternative program on that day for those who cannot travel e.g. whilst their classmates go on their day excursion, the religious pupils stay behind with a teacher and just have a relaxed day/ maybe go to a local walk.

Unless posts from the op have been deleted, where has she attacked you cactus?
You seemed to be intent on starting something with her here, she didn't respond to your last post yet you still post a passive aggressive response.
I think op didn't want to put any religions to avoid this.

I don't believe that Jewish faith schools, or Muslim ones, are unable to take their pupils on visits to the Far East.

Unless the group contains members whose requirements are mutually exclusive, it shouldn't be too much of a problem. So what if the whole group eats kosher/halal most of the time? If any group leaders feel some particular culinary experience is being missed, they can take a separate group out.

In practice, most of the memorable experiences will be street food and general cultural immersion, all of which will be available to all students willing to take advantage.

It doesn't need to be overcomplicated. Just plan the trip, make sure there is a vegetarian option at anywhere you are going to eat, and offer students the option of staying at the hotel on days they cannot go out. It may mean they miss a few of the attractions, but that is a choice they need to make.