to give a limited number of religious vetos for school trips

[mini321]

My DS's school is trying to organise a school trip to the far east to encourage the development of new language courses they have put on offer recently.

The person organising quite a complicated trip is being asked by a number of parents about not flying on certain days, not using public transport on those days when away, asking that all food follows religious rules for their children - I feel the organiser will spend more time accommodating this group to the detriment of the trip as a whole.

My memories of trips to the Far East is all about the food because it is so different, seems a shame half the group will miss out but that is their concern I guess.

AIBU to suggest we put a limit to the number of restrictions? (slightly tongue in cheek here ) but would be interested if any other parents have encountered anything similar?

Maybe the atheists should get some protection from too many restrictions foisted upon them.

The Nazis killed Jews because of their "race" not their religion.

Well one would hope we can all agree, regardless of our religion or lack of religion, that the Nazis were wrong. They were wrong to invade Poland, wrong to kill Jews, gays, gypsies, communists etc etc. Just about everything they did was wrong. I'm struggling to think of anything they got right!

It's a strange argument that says the Nazis thought the Jews were a race, so they must be. If they were wrong about so many things, why trust their understanding of race to be correct?

No idea how we're using anything done by the nazis as any form of racial classification. They killed anyone who wasn't Caucasian, healthy and heterosexual so with Jews you could say it was either race or religion. Although I think because they were evil sadistic deranged cunts is the only correct explanation as to why.

TTWK, you know perfectly well what you're doing.

Reported.

I wonder how many people with Jewish mothers have chosen to follow Islam, thus becoming Jewish Muslims.

Assuming that was a genuine question (no offence to you, but this thread has gone weird) the answer is not an insignificant amount. But it tends to be more religious Jews converting to become more religious Muslims IYSWIM. The religions themselves are incredibly similar and it is not actually that big a leap to go from one to the other, particularly at the more orthodox end of the spectrum.

The point about Jews and race is one that has been debated on so many levels for some many years. In the US, Jews are legally a race. This ruling actually upset a lot of Jews. There is no good word to describe what Jews are that is above and beyond the religion, but there is clearly more to it than just worship.

If Jews can share specific and unique genetic diseases amongst other things, then it's more than a religion. The fact is that until relatively recently the numbers of Jews marrying out was small and although conversion is possible it is neither encouraged nor easy. Therefore, for over 5000 years Jews were marrying each other and having babies with each other. It's perfectly possible to come from that genetic stock and not believe in a higher power.

So the two are separate, the rest is semantics. My friend underwent an orthodox conversion and is way more 'jewish' than me. She more knowledgeable and more observant. She was not born of a Jewish mother so although she is every inch a religious Jew, she is not racially (for want of a better word) one. Neither is better or worse, they're just two separate things.

What a strange and nasty turn this thread has taken. Of course you can be a non religious Jew. I know loads. Whether they see it as their race, their culture or their religion, Jews, in my limited experience, never lose their 'Jewishness'. It's integral to who they are as both individuals and a collective group.

I also know Messianic Jews (Jews who have converted to Christianity but are still also Jewish). Same probably goes for other religions.

As for the original thread - if you organise a trip you do your very best to make arrangements to suit those attending, whether those are to do with special needs, disabilities, religion, parental preference or any number of other things, some of which can be helped and some of which can't. If the adjustments can't be made then they can't but you at least try.

Even if part of the group need to be delayed by 36 hours the rest of the party doesn't apart from a few teachers. You make arrangements for those who need it and it doesn't apply to others. It's that simple.

It's really not that simple at all. Imagine a flight is delayed, so the students will end up travelling over their non-travelling period. The airline is going to expect them to pay a fee to change their travel details, it may also mean having to organise and pay for additional accommodation. It can affect staffing numbers if people have to stay behind with a group. The whole thing would have a major knock on effect for the rest of the trip.

It would be simpler if the school said what was happening on the trip and if parents didn't like it, their kids didn't go.

It seems a shame that a lot of kids will have their trip controlled by a minority.

If the minority is large enough, they should run two separate trips to the same area.

Good point midnite.
Having to have extra staff to stay with some pupils costs money. All the pupils pay for this so the cost for all students rises to accommodate the few.

I'm all for accommodating special requirements but there will have to be a line drawn somewhere.

TTWK, you know perfectly well what you're doing. Reported.

Well we will wait to see what comes of it. I also know exactly what I am doing. I am giving an opinion that Judaism is a belief system, not a racial classification. You can be any race and be Jewish. Or be Jewish by conversion. I also think that although one can be culturally Jewish, if you don't believe in god, you're not Jewish. In my view. The same as Christianity. You can't call yourself a Christian if you don't believe in god, just because you have a Christmas tree and eat easter eggs.

I challenge anyone to find anything remotely anti-Semitic in anything I've posted on the subject.

So let's see what MN HQ make of your report.

So TTWK say I converted to Christianity. In your eyes I am no longer a jew in any sense of the word. So I would no longer need genetic screening before ttc? Could I convert for the period I was pregnant so I could be sure that my babies didn't have Tay Sachs or something equally dreadful and then convert back afterwards? I'm surprised the NHS don't insist on that. It must be cheaper than running free screening for Jews. We could just be christened when we start trying for a baby and then converted back once the baby is born.

Or maybe your logic is flawed.

TTWK Do you think you are coming up with fantastically insightful new arguments and thoughts that no one before has ever thought up before? You are talking as it you wish to belittle person's upbringing and belief system, or lack there of. It's not about religion, it's the manner and values in which people were raised.

There has been so much discussion on what does and doesn't constitute Judaism. It's verging on arrogant to suggest that you know better than the hundreds before you.

Lemon, the point re Tay Sachs is an interesting one. Yes it's a genetic disease and yes it affects mainly Jews. But it only affects Jews of Eastern European origin, Ashkinasi Jews. If Jews are a race, why doesn't it affect saffardic Jews?

If you go back to my original points, I make it quite clear that by looking at DNA, you could guess as someone's religion. But no more that guess.

EG, DNA could tell you that someone is of Latin American origin, and using that you could guess that they were catholic. They probably would be, or may not.

There is no doubt that many Jews originate from the same genetic background. That genetic background is the same background that gives rise to Tay Sachs. Hence is a condition that affects some Jews.

But your example proves my point. A Jewish couple of Eastern European origin convert to Christianity. There child, born after they converted, goes on to marry a child from another Eastern European could who converted to Christianity. Both of them might not even know their respective parents used to be Jewish. As far as they are concerned, they were both "born Christian".

But if they had a child, it would still be at risk from Tey Sachs. Their DNA isn't altered by what they believe in, or don't believe in.

In the same way as hundred of thousands of Jews are not at risk from Tey Sachs, because they are from a completely different genetic background.

I strongly believe that within reasonable parameters race is what you identify with, but unless I've missed either a post or a subtle context I don't see anything anti-Semitic about ttwk holding the opposite opinion. Infact the only thing on this post I've seen that could be seen as stirring up anti-Semitic feelings or any other form of racial/religious hatred is the suggestion early on in the thread everyone could just have kosher/ halal whatever. And even I can see that while I strongly believe that sort of idea is the best way to stir up hatred and resentment, it's rarely intended that way, and I very much doubt was intended that way on this thread.

It's really not that simple at all. Imagine a flight is delayed, so the students will end up travelling over their non-travelling period. The airline is going to expect them to pay a fee to change their travel details, it may also mean having to organise and pay for additional accommodation. It can affect staffing numbers if people have to stay behind with a group. The whole thing would have a major knock on effect for the rest of the trip.

But presumably any extra costs would need to be put on a school credit card and would be passed on to the parents concerned. I can't see any reason the other students would be expected to fund it.

And staff numbers depend on the number of students, so the students who traveled would still have adequate staff to carry on as normal. It would have very little affect on other students. I don't understand why people get het up about things like this when it's fairly simple to accommodate both. IMO problems only arise when other people are expected to adhere to the same rules. As long as the other children aren't expected to eat kosher or forgo activities on certain days I just can't see the problem.

But if that were the case then it would affect all eastern Europeans equally, but it doesn't. If you read my earlier posts you will see that I said I don't believe the term 'race' adequately described the bit of judaism that is beyond the religion. But you seem to be unaccepting of the fact that that there is anything beyond that.

But if they had a child, it would still be at risk from Tey Sachs. Their DNA isn't altered by what they believe in, or don't believe in.

Exactly, because they would still be 'racially' jewish, regardless of what they know about their history or which religion they chose to follow. The two are separate so it is perfectly possible to be one without the other.

I think where the confusion comes is because other major religions enourage converts whereas Judaism doesn't. As I said earlier, over 5000 years marrying and reproducing within a certain gene pool creates something. Of not a 'race' then something very similar to it.

TTWK do you not see the irony of insisting Jewish people are not a race then referring to them with racial labels eg Ashkinasi (sic) or saffardic (sic). I suppose you're entitled to think that if you want, but I'm entitled to think you're extremely dense and misinformed to do so. Marrying out, even to a convert, is still not acceptable to a lot of the Orthodox Jewish.

Exactly, because they would still be 'racially' jewish, regardless of what they know about their history or which religion they chose to follow. The two are separate so it is perfectly possible to be one without the other.

You are putting the horse before the cart. The race was around long before the religion, even though Judaism is a far older religion than most. If Judaism had never been invented, some people would still have Tay Sachs.

And you haven't answered my other point. If Jews are a race, why aren't all Jews at risk of Tay Sachs. What about the Ethiopian Jews? No risk of Tay Sachs are all, but apparently they are the same race?

TTWK do you not see the irony of insisting Jewish people are not a race then referring to them with racial labels eg Ashkinasi (sic) or saffardic (sic).

But they are not racial labels. They are 2 strands of the Jewish community from different racial backgrounds. Race predates religion.

Eg. Most Rastafarians are of the same race. But Rastafarianism is not a race. There are many people of the same race as most Rastafarians who are not Rastafarians, and some Rastafarians of different races. Negro, Caucasian, they are races. A belief system is not a race. You can give up Rastafarianism or Judaism, but you'll always be black, white etc.

I think CactusAnnie has been remarkably patient to the extent I’m beginning to wonder if she’s really a Jew . Cactus if you could channel the attitude of some people I know – particularly one family who run an excellent fabric shop in Soho, but take no prisoners if you dither – I’d be more comfortable .

Is the Cat’s Whiskers still there SuperFlyHigh? I went there in the mid-eighties to see Elvis Costello. It was a big adventure for three girls from Essex. One was Jewish and another half-Jewish btw. I’m Catholic but found it easy to understand the concept.

Reducing race down to colour is both simplistic and ignorant. It ignores genetics, mixing of races and also the fact that races, by way of originating from the same places, have a shared cultural and historic link. It also ignores the fact that race often isn't inherent but based on our perceptions which are only sometimes based on colour and rarely on hard genetic facts.

most Jews were born into it and our being Jewish is not open to question.

Wow, and you accuse me a being pig headed and stubborn! Not open to question! And why can't someone born to Jewish parents who decides it's not for them, relinquish it? You make it sound like the mafia, and it isn't.
And don't quote me religious laws, because they only apply to people who believe in them.

Someone who converted into Judaism (which is relatively rare) obviously won't have the same genetic make up but will have the religious belief.

I agree with that. Having converted, they are Jews. And their kids and grandkids will be "born into it". So tell me, how can peoples with different genetic make up be of the same race? Unless you are now saying that not all Jews are the same race, which is what I've being saying from the off!

And you last comment is beyond contempt, and very sexist. At no time have a levelled person insults at you, just given my views on religion and race.

If it is not a one-faith school, then I do not believe the trio should be altered significantly for one particular faith or another.

If your religion imposes restrictions on your life, that is a restriction on you. Not on anyone else.