to give a limited number of religious vetos for school trips

[mini321]

My DS's school is trying to organise a school trip to the far east to encourage the development of new language courses they have put on offer recently.

The person organising quite a complicated trip is being asked by a number of parents about not flying on certain days, not using public transport on those days when away, asking that all food follows religious rules for their children - I feel the organiser will spend more time accommodating this group to the detriment of the trip as a whole.

My memories of trips to the Far East is all about the food because it is so different, seems a shame half the group will miss out but that is their concern I guess.

AIBU to suggest we put a limit to the number of restrictions? (slightly tongue in cheek here ) but would be interested if any other parents have encountered anything similar?

Maybe the atheists should get some protection from too many restrictions foisted upon them.

Lol limited and I don't think you get Halloween costumes in that classification

TTWK is the Anti-Jewish Comedian. Bit like the Anti-Christ but not as funny.

That would be a funny joke, if I'd said anything remotely anti Jewish. I've already challenged someone to find something in my posts that is remotely anti Semitic, but they failed to respond!

In case you lot have forgotten, the OP started this thread about school trips, and sensibly left long ago.

If you want to rehearse the same tired old arguments about race and nazism, why don't you fuck off and start a new thread?

Jews , Muslims, Christians, Rasta, atheists, brown, yellow, white, black or blue are all one race- human

In case you lot have forgotten, the OP started this thread about school trips, and sensibly left long ago. If you want to rehearse the same tired old arguments about race and nazism, why don't you fuck off and start a new thread?

I don't think anyone has forgotten sallyingforth.

Some parents are asking if an accommodation can be made for their children.

If it can't be done then I guess they'll drop out. But there's no harm in asking.

As a secular Catholic, if I felt the majority of the group were going to intrude on my beliefs and compromise the educational experience I would withdraw my child too.

I'd be sad about that but I'd go with the majority view. I wouldn't object to people trying to establish ground rules at an early stage. Especially since if they felt that strongly they'd probably drop out.

They are 2 strands of the Jewish community from different racial backgrounds. Race predates religion

I think this is where your problem lies TTWK. You're ignorant of the origins of Judaism. I take it from your post that you think Ashkenazi Jewish people are people who lived in Central Europe and Russia who became Jews, and likewise Sephardi Jewish people Spaniards who became Jews and that they are completely different races. That's not the case. They all originate from Israel and emigrated from there to other places. They were the race that lived there. The religion spread by emigration not conversion. As a result I this case religion and race went hand in hand.

Ashkenazi Jewish people are descended from 350 people and have developed a distinct set of racial characteristics. If a group can be narrowed down to descent from 350 people isn't a race then I don't know what is.

Also you don't seem to realise that an awful lot of Jews, maybe the majority, see Judaism as inherited, specifically through the mother. Not simply as a choice of belief system. They don't consider people with a non Jewish mother Jewish even if they profess to believe the same things.

Wow, this thread has taken some unpleasant terms. Kudos to CactusAnnie and others for trying to shed some light here.

I don't think Judaism is a race, though it has been identified as such from a legal perspective. Of course, I would also say that race is a social construct, not a meaningful biological category. However, I think the fact that conversion is possible where Judaism is concerned indicates that it falls in a different category to what we call "race." There are members of the Jewish community all over the world, of all colours and nationalities. But then again (on the third hand?), Judaism is more than a belief system. I would say it is both a religion and a cultural identity.

I am Jewish and have never believed in God or practiced the religion beyond celebrating some holidays. But I am most certainly every bit as Jewish as the Chief Rabbi.

As for the OP, the school should work to accommodate all the students. Someone early on in the thread gave some very sensible advice.

Some unpleasant turns.

They don't consider people with a non Jewish mother Jewish even if they profess to believe the same things.

That's what I understand and what many Jewish people have told me regardless of whether that woman converts to Judaism.

I don't like it. If I'd wanted to marry a Jew, and it came close, I would not have converted because many, but not all, Jewish people would not have considered me or my children to be Jewish even if I'd made all that effort.

But that would not have been a reason for me to dislike all Jews.

Incidentally, as a cradle Catholic, I do not consider converts to be part of my tribe even if they are more devout than I am.

In fact, that might make me more suspicious.

Certainly with the converting to Catholicism, unless we're talking for the purpose of the wedding and then not practicing, I've found the practicing converts tend to take it to what to me is extremes that a born strict practicing Catholic rarely does.

If I'd wanted to marry a Jew, and it came close, I would not have converted because many, but not all, Jewish people would not have considered me or my children to be Jewish even if I'd made all that effort.

Not really true because it depends on the conversion. If you did a liberal one, your children would be recognised as jewish by the liberal movement but not orthodox. If you did an orthodox one - say United Synagogue - it would be recognised by every major movement and your children would be considered Jewish. This is all obviously the religious side of things, nothing to do with your racial make up .

I do sort of understand it. There's sort of a feeling that without the historical sense of your ancestors suffering you can't truly be Jewish. People said the same thing in the Rachel Doleanz case. And also that people suffered to preserve their traditions and practices and they don't want to see it diluted. Plus of course it also gives ammo to people like TTWK who don't think it's a race, and if conversions were encouraged that might actually be true.

I find that strange limited. I and my children are Catholic converts and I find your attitude to people like us rather sad. I also don't think you can compare it to Judaism as Catholicism is a faith not a ethnicity. I have most certainly have not turned into a zealot and thankfully the people in my parish have been extremely welcoming and rightly regard me as Catholic as they are. Culturally I may not have the same background but in every important part of the faith I and my children are every bit as Catholic as those born into the faith.

buffyp I have no wish to reject you. As a convert you have far more faith-based conviction that I do.

But you are not part of my tribe.

In fact when there was a lot of conversion from CofE to Catholicism around the time when Ann Widdecombe did it I was very angry.

Because how she felt was not how I felt and I regarded her conversion as Entryism

But surely every Catholic was a convert at some point?

(Not meant to be rude, genuinely want to understand)

I struggle a bit with the idea that if one of your parents is Jewish then whether you are or aren't depends on which parent is. That doesn't really sound like a race or ethnicity in the sense used for other races and ethnicities.

But you are not part of my tribe.

What is the Catholic tribe ethically and culturally speaking? Genuine question.

But surely every Catholic was a convert at some point?

Yes, you're right from about 2,000 years ago.

Sorry ethnically

"As I said at the outset, there are only 5 races within the human species, and Jewish, Islamic or English ain't among them."

Yep, you - randomer on the internet - know better than all those before you. The law says Judaism is a race but the law is a crock of shite, right?

Arrogant or what?!

What is the Catholic tribe ethically and culturally speaking? Genuine question.

Being brought up in it.

I don't subscribe to the the faith aspects but I have absorbed them by osmosis and understand them and the cultural aspects effortlessly even if as an Anglo/Irish Catholic I attend a Catholic church in Spain, Italy or anywhere else.

Can I just ask, just out of interest as I don't think I understand the genetics of all this, if Jewish people appear like the people of the country they come from, I think people have mentioned blonde Jews is Sweden and black Jews in Ethiopia but I might have got that wrong, then have they inter married? I know people have said conversion is rare but if say in Sweden the Jewish community only married ethnically Jewish people how did they become blonde? I don't know if I am explaining this very well, do you understand what I mean.

If all Jews are descended from people from the area of the Middle East that is now Israel wouldn't they still appear to be Middle Eastern if they hadn't converted/intermarried with their hosts?

Cactus I think you have said you are an expert in this area so I would be interested in what you think.

Sorry, I know this is nothing to do with the OP but I have been thinking about it and can't quite work it out, not surprising as I know nothing about genetics.