to give a limited number of religious vetos for school trips

[mini321]

My DS's school is trying to organise a school trip to the far east to encourage the development of new language courses they have put on offer recently.

The person organising quite a complicated trip is being asked by a number of parents about not flying on certain days, not using public transport on those days when away, asking that all food follows religious rules for their children - I feel the organiser will spend more time accommodating this group to the detriment of the trip as a whole.

My memories of trips to the Far East is all about the food because it is so different, seems a shame half the group will miss out but that is their concern I guess.

AIBU to suggest we put a limit to the number of restrictions? (slightly tongue in cheek here ) but would be interested if any other parents have encountered anything similar?

Maybe the atheists should get some protection from too many restrictions foisted upon them.

I have already explained to you, a long way upthread, that there are plenty of genetic studies that prove genetic links between Jews who look Black, Indian, White, Chinese, Burmese, etc.

Cactus, all humans share 99.9% of our DNA, so you can find genetic links between Inuits and Aborigines. They are not the same race. As explained, there are only 5 races within the human species.

We also have genetic links to chimps, with whom we share 98% DNA, but we are not even the same species. All living things on the planet are linked genetically, as ultimately you, me, a banana and a clump of moss all share a common ancestor.

With respect, I think you need to do more research to understand what constitutes a race within a biological and evolutionary framework.

I haven't found Cactus's posts passive aggressive at all, FWIW. Especially in the later part of the thread, I'm impressed by her and other Jewish posters patience in the face of what I would consider extreme goadiness. (and thanks for all the links!).

I don't think the op has been racist at all! I think she purposely didn't mention religions to avoid this.
Yes you could take the post either way as i read the post the other way!
Yes maybe a bit insensitive in the way she has worded her posts but not racist at all. she is simply thinking about all her students and possible problems that might arise.

Going back to the OPs question, I don't think its unreasonable at all for a tour organiser to spend a little time investigating possibilities for accommodating a group. Seems like good business sense.

'We've been having a laugh at the OP's apparently total lack of self-awareness'
'I don't see racism where it doesn't exist. You unfortunately seem to be blind to your own unpleasantness. '
Thank god (no pun intended) that schools, local authorities, and the legal system are not (any longer) run by people like you.

'Thank god that the majority try to be tolerant, inclusive and understanding of others.' Just some of your lovely quotes directed towards people because they don't agree with you.
I feel sorry for the op.

I wouldn't call any of those comments passive-aggressive, Kali.

Can you explain how you read the OP's (imo, passive-aggressive) "No" a different way?

I understand where op is coming from. she is concerned that her childs trip of a lifetime (that she will be paying a lot of money for) will be drastically altered and he will miss out on things that they might of done if not accommodating the parents requests.

It's perfectly reasonable to ask these questions, your lying for the trip just as much as the parents making requests. It's the job of the organiser to reassure parents and explain how he can arrange things so there isn't a detrimental impact for anyone on the trip.

If your of a religion where you don't have set religious rules then it's a bit daunting to get your head around how these could be accommodated easily without impacting on the trip. Loads of posters on here have suggested ways and means that fill everyone's needs.

Lying = paying

What a sad thread this has become. All the talk about racism, and arguments about a single word in a post.

As someone with a partner of a different race I've learned to spot even subtle or unintended racism, but I saw nothing whatever racist in the OP. S/he seems to have raised a potentially delicate matter in a careful way, asking for advice on a difficult situation.

It was not necessary to start throwing accusations of racism, instead of giving the practical advice that the OP so clearly needs. If you can't give that advice. then just stay clear FFS.

IMO this is not one of MN's finest hours.
BTW I've said my piece and am not going to join in a nasty thread.

"Muslims can eat kosher food."

Um, actually, some Muslim sects consider Kosher food to be Haram. It's complicated.

I thought the key thing about Judaism is that you didn't have to believe any of the theology, the trick is to follow all the rules (circumcision, tassels, wearing white, don't touch a mensturating woman, and all that). Follow the rules then you get to heaven without having to believe any of the supernatural details.

OP, I think you have to be honest about so many factors you can't control so you cannot offer assurances about the food. It's not like you can conceivably go all self-catering. It would be the same if certain food allergies.

Without wishing to out myself, I have a PhD in a subject closely related to human and ape genetics. With respect, it really isn't me who needs to do more reading on this particular subject.

Brilliant. Then perhaps you could explain how the daughter of a couple who converted to Judaism before she was born, who was then apparently "born Jewish", changes her DNA to become part of the Jewish race? If that daughter marries a non Jewish man, then their children are still Jewish, in Jewish law. How does their DNA define them as a member of the Jewish race?

There must be thousands of practicing Jews who are descended from converts to Judaism, several generations since. How are they part of the Jewish race?

And a Jewish couple who convert to Islam, what race are their children?

If it Jewish I know several non-Orthodox Jews who eat out a lot anywhere... one of my friends also used to eat cheeseburgers then feel guilty (meat and milk I think combined aren't allowed). basically they wouldn't of course eat bacon or pork products but had food from a kitchen that presumably cooked pork.

Orthodox Jews I have no idea if they can eat anywhere but presume it is strictly kosher - eg restaurant/supermarket etc. It is interesting I know a Chabad (like a Jewish holy house I think... for orthodox in SW19) and I never knew where they got kosher food from... there is a shop in Sutton etc... but then I clicked on a link and found that of course Sainsbos/Waitrose deliver and of course they stock kosher online - I don't look for it instore so I'd not know... strangely enough Safeways in Streatham always had a few kosher bits in their chiller cabinets but there was a sadly lamented kosher butchers down the road past the old Bingo Hall and Cats Whiskers nightclub. They did say something this year about a kosher food stall at Wimbledon Tennis Championships which is great, really brilliant idea!

www.wimshul.org/community/wider-comunity/kosher-food-in-south-london/

Non-Orthodox Jews it depends re the Friday/Saturday night rule... either as one friend did she stayed in on that time or they observe some times and not all the times...

A bit tongue in cheek but maybe they make up for these lapses by Yom Kippur - Day of Atonement!

Agreed sally.

No cactus some of those posts were directed to others, noname, birds gotta fly

There is no agreed scientific basis at all for the concept of race... There is more variation between the different ethnic groups in subsaharan Africa than there are between all the other "races". That being said due to the fact that it is not an evangelising religion Jewish people are also an ethnic group. That isn't to say there aren't Jewish people who are descended from converts but the same is true of any other ethnic group... Some members will have some form of mixed heritage. Jewish people are bound together by more than just their religion... The Nazis killed Jews because of their "race" not their religion. Catholic nuns were sent to Auschwitz because they were of Jewish ethnicity.

Salllyingforth well put, I have enough from the helpful posts above to make suggestions to the school - I hope they are up to speed anyway but it can only help if not.

HRHLady you come to aid Cactus and criticise my supporting words to someone that feels they are being excluded from a social group due to their race - shame on you. EthnicIsolation

"I come from a Jewish family but I'm an atheist, married to another atheist who comes from a Christian family, our children are at school with children of all faiths and none.
My daughter's closest two friends are Turkish Muslim and Black Christian"

but this does not sound similar to you and your "some of my friends are black" argument , very selective of you.

The maternal side of my family is Jewish (so technically I am). The paternal side of my family are not, but are from dead centre of the Orthodox Jewish area in Higher Broughton. So this is not something I'm unfamiliar with and it's all a bit to me.

In my experience Orthodox Jewish attitude is not 'We cannot do certain things so other people must do things our way to accommodate us'. It's more, 'We cannot do certain things so we must be prepared to make sacrifices in order to follow our religion'.

I've never encountered a situation where even the most Orthodox have expected the non-Jewish to keep Kosher or forgo doing things like using electrics, the phone or transport to accommodate them. Quite the reverse. It wasn't uncommon to see a black clad figure standing silently outside our front door waiting to be seen (they couldn't knock or use the doorbell) in order to ask to have an oven relit, an ambulance called or a lightbulb changed. They were the most considerate neighbours and were more concerned with making sure their observance didn't impact on non- Jewish neighbours than expectant of being accommodated.

There were only two things over 30 years which caused problems. One was a man who stood at a window and watched an old being robbed at knifepoint on the Sabbath and did nothing because he wouldn't use the phone. That was more to do with him being a dickhead than him being Jewish, and other Jewish people in the area were horrified and desperately worried it would call bad feeling against them.

The other was that back when a lot of holocaust survivors were still alive a lot of them viewed authorities and particularly the police with a great level of distrust. If someone Jewish in the area was a victim of crime they wouldn't call the police, instead a 'bush telegraph' would alert all the men in the area and they'd go out in their Volvos, find the culprit and dish out their own justice. As a result the police viewed it as somewhat of a 'no go' area and sometimes didn't come out when non-Jewish people complained. But the Rabbis actually complained about this and had it rectified as something they'd never asked for was potentially souring community relationships. If there were disputes between Jewish/non-Jewish people over noise or boundaries it would be sorted out in a tenth of the time the council would sort it, because the community were so keen to keep good relations going.

My family aren't there anymore, maybe it's changed in the last few years. But expecting everybody on a school trip to abide by rules to keep kosher would be extremely unusual IMO.

I agree with sallyingforth - it has been a crap thread, creating far more heat than light, now almost totally off the point, and full of bizarre statements, such as that secular Jews don't exist, which would be more suited to a radical right-wing rabbi in Itamar than a MN contributor, and others trying to second guess what orthodox Jews should or shouldn't accept in terms of kashrut.

mini321 No, I criticise the fact you have been using a past post to someone else as a shield in this thread. I find it distasteful and exploitative. I have not criticised your supporting words themselves.

There is little comparison: Annie told you that she had encountered little racism, and gave a context for it. You were responding to being told that your posts came across as racist...

Aren't the travel on public transport things quite limiting, too? Like what if you have a delay or miss a flight, you could end up stranded for an extra 36 hours or even a lot more just because of two kids' prohibitions about which days they can travel.

I don't think you can take anyone whose habits are going to be very limiting for 90%+ of the group. It's not fair.

The atheist Jew idea makes perfect sense to me, I'm an atheist member of my local church, I think privately they're all mad with the religious belief but I'm really into the idea of the good done in the community, and if I'd been raised in that culture I'd possibly refer to myself as atheist C of E.
As to the religious requirements, I've yet to meet any Jew who demands everyone else follows a kosher diet or rests on the sabbath etc. My own moral belief would mean my child wouldn't be eating any meat that had been raised or killed in a way that doesn't fit our ethics, which also includes halal and kosher, so I'd be raging if I was told they'd all be eating kosher (rather than veggie options) on this trip because of other people's beliefs. But I wouldn't be fuming at the Jewish parents, because they would not be the ones ignoring my childs belief, it would be the organisers. Every religious person I've met in real life is just as respectful of my beliefs as I am of theirs, and do not go round demanding everyone follow their customs themselves. Nor am I aware of any part of the Torah that states food is only kosher if everyone else eats it, or that you aren't honouring the sabbath if your schoolmates don't. And people randomly deciding on their behalf that is what Jews want does nothing but stir up hatred. Same could be said for any other religion

Measl my mom had trouble with food when she visited china!
She is not a vegetarian just likes certain meats cooked very welldone so she tried to stick to a lot of veggie dishes, however she still ended up with meat in them.
She said though that sampling their cuisine was one of the highlights of her trip.

what a clusterf*ck this thread is

Even if part of the group need to be delayed by 36 hours the rest of the party doesn't apart from a few teachers. You make arrangements for those who need it and it doesn't apply to others. It's that simple.

I wonder how many people with Jewish mothers have chosen to follow Islam, thus becoming Jewish Muslims.