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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

lets try again with the anti islamophobia, shall we!

240 replies

karbonfootprint · 03/07/2015 22:38

Well, I did start a thread about this recently, but it is full of discussion about terrorists, and events in other countries......

Just talking about this country, the UK, and Muslim and non Muslim British people, lets just look after each other, and stand up for each other against intolerance and racism, and be friends!

OP posts:
VanillaTwirl · 04/07/2015 15:27

Sunsets I don't think there's 'evidence' that either of them said anything at all really tbh.
All that's available is a selection of chinese whispers in print.

One thing is as much a bunch of made up crap as the other.

Midorichan · 04/07/2015 16:35

My neighbours are Muslims. The women are always inside doing the cooking etc. The men are the ones outside in the summer together having fun. It's not something I agree with, or would take part in myself religion-wise, but it doesn't make them themselves bad people. My neighbours are lovely, as human beings, and we're very lucky - they go out of their way to be accommodating, their children are very polite and courteous, and aside from some late night laughing and talking outside when it's mosque night on a Friday and their friend's come round, they don't drink or play loud music like the dipshits up the road keeping the whole effing neighbourhood awake with hardcore trance until 5am.

Just wanted to put that out there.

xenu1 · 04/07/2015 16:46

Slightly off-topic, but hopefully sympathetic - a Belgian colleague and I were discussing this - young Muslims off to join ISIS in a religious war -and he compared it to when Garibaldi was uniting Italy, and combating the Popes power. Many young Belgians went off their farms to serve the Pope in this struggle, which is a bit comparable I suppose?

xenu1 · 04/07/2015 16:49

Midorichan, lovely post. Many people live kind and fulfilling lives within their belief system; its the system we should criticise, not the people. I will remember that!

slippermaiden · 04/07/2015 16:57

I have Muslim friends in London who are traditional and quite religious but they have always made me feel so welcome and part of their family. I also have very modern Muslim friends who live in Istanbul. Again, very welcoming, kind friendly people. I feel my life is richer for knowing both these families, and I hope they don't experience some of the prejudices I hear and read about.

Ubik1 · 04/07/2015 17:08

Well yes of course most people who are Muslim are also really nice, friendly people. We live in a very multicultural area and communities rub along ok, all very cordial. Most people are the same -trying to do the best fur their families, working hard fir their children's future.

But this is about ideology not about individuals, it's about what Islam means and how it manifests in the 21st century.

That family from Luton who went to Syria apparently wanted their children raised the 'Isis' environment. These are ordinary people who look at the 'Caliphate' and think it looks like a great place to raise kids.

Why are people going to Syria? How could people think it looks like paradise?

Kardamyli · 04/07/2015 17:38

Ubik, they see it as paradise as they have been told it is a land where everything is done in accordance with the Koran and Sunni teachings. If the main thing defining you is that you are a Sunni Muslim, and you see your religion as the most important thing (which I understand a lot of Muslims are taught to do) then a place run in accordance with strict Islamic principles and sharia law will be paradise.

They are exactly the type of people who can never successfuly integrate into Western Europe as they see everyone not like them as vastly inferior. They have gone to Syria to get away from the infidels!

Christinayanglah · 04/07/2015 17:48

Fat stacks

I think the Big Yin sums it up perfectly

Toadinthehole · 05/07/2015 08:23

Thanks for the replies. I wasn't sure how my post would be taken.

The point I'd really like to bring out is that traditional Christian worship is, by modern standards, very undemonstrative and reflective. You basically read out loud from a book, and the things you read don't change much from week to week, allowing one to get into a contemplative rhythm. From what I know of Muslim worship, it's far more akin to it than, say, contemporary Christian worship in a Pentecostal church.

I hope that what I say next will not offend people, but the new Christianity that I observe replacing traditional Christianity doesn't value this contemplative, comparatively intellectual approach to religion - in fact it is quite often quite hostile, demanding uncritical acceptance of all manner of banalities, one example being denial of evolution - the average churchgoer 20 years ago would have laughed at someone who did that. Now, just about any growing church expects it. I don't think this form of Christianity is sustainable.

purdiepipesup

Excellent post, Toad. Is the vicar of your church one of the traditional, theologically-versed ones you mention in your post?

Yes - I did some theology and Biblical studies at an RG university, so I can tell when someone doesn't know what they're talking about. An awful lot of preachers in churches these days don't. My vicar does, and he's a great bloke (an ex-banker, as it happens).

His wife busts a gut organising the kids' and youth programme in the face of constant passive aggression from a phalanx of old ladies who object to children being present in the church.

The previous vicar was a very learned and decorative man who gave the impression that I was most welcome to attend his church, and my children (4 and 1 at the time) were equally welcome to stay at home. He's been gone for some years but numbers continue to decline, mostly through death.

I think everyone at my church knows we're on borrowed time, but no one has the first idea what to do about this, so everyone keeps on buggering on without really thinking about it. And I see the same problem elsewhere at every turn. For example, my DM says that her church gets the same numbers as it did 30 years ago. Problem is, it's the same people just 30 years older, there's no longer a Sunday school or enough collective energy to organise parish events or even anything more than the most basic administration. The church hall was burnt down by arsonists some years ago, and there's still no replacement even planned. She probably knows the parish is on its uppers, but she can't bear to think about it.

I take my own kids to church, but to be honest I just don't see them fitting in to churches like mine once they get above a certain age, and I simply don't see what alternative there is for them within Christianity. Of all the traditional churches, only the Catholics have young people in any numbers, and crisis is approaching for them too.

The desire to contemplate the meaning of life and 'be serious' certainly hasn't gone away, just as Philip Larkin says. So where does one turn?

Well, Islam......?

lushilaoshi · 05/07/2015 08:36

Urgh, I can't stand threads like these. The ignorance, prejudice and outright hatred demonstrated by some of the posters on here makes me sick.

I live in a Muslim country and find it to be a very tolerant place where locals make a huge number of allowances for westerners who don't share Muslim sentiments about drinking, dress etc. My husband is Muslim, and no I'm not some kind of oppressed, burka-wearing doormat: quite the opposite in fact. I'm surrounded by sweet, tolerant Muslims every single day who are horrified that they are being tarred with the same brush as extremists.

So yes, I am very anti-Islamophobia. And I think Islamophobia comes in many guises, not just from EDL skinheads but naice mumsnetters who make sweeping comments about a religion they know very little about.

milliemanzi · 05/07/2015 08:46

The thing that infuriates me is when men who support UKIP or the EDL use concerns about how Islam treats women as part of their racist diatribe, as if THEY are pro equality!! I mean, do you think Tommy Robinson have Nigel Farage have progressive ideas about women?! My uncle (UKIP supporter) is VERY vocal about how women shouldn't wear the niqab as it is oppressive, he's such a sexist pig it's so disingenuous.

Gemauve · 05/07/2015 09:47

I live in a Muslim country and find it to be a very tolerant place

Presumably you're relaxed about flogging bloggers to death publicly over the course of years?

NewFlipFlops · 05/07/2015 10:03

Toadinthehole's posts are very interesting. As an atheist I have no axe to grind. As an ex-Christian (Catholic) it is plain to see what growing anti-intellectualism and anti-aestheticism have done to both the CofE and RC churches.

I am really staggered though to read that evolution is disputed by parts of the established church.

MistressDeeCee · 05/07/2015 10:07

It all sounds a bit "hooray for Islam" to me, and that makes me uncomfortable. Although it seems to be very "anti" to say that nowadays

All this drive to make Islam seem like a tolerant, misunderstood religion. I don't believe it is, at all.I m not in favour of any religion actually; bunch of power hungry men dictating rules to others. Many of them warmongers because without that to define them in life, what would they be? Why do we need to "understand" Islam any more than any other religion?

If you live in a country where atrocities take place in the name of Islam its frightening. Im not into christianity but Im not seeing that women are treated as almost sub-human in many instances, or that bombings and shootings are taking place in the name of christianity.

There appears to be far too much extremism within Islam yet you aren't supposed to say it, and the examples of "oh no its not that way, I know some good Muslim people" are for what, really? Good & bad everywhere but too many atrocities are simply not a good look.

Blair and Bush have a lot to answer for and I have a feeling that we are going to pay for their misdeeds for a long time

lushilaoshi · 05/07/2015 10:08

Obviously not, Gemauve. Not sure what that's got to do with Islam generally, though.

NewFlipFlops · 05/07/2015 10:44

Can you say where you live, lushi, and are you concerned that it might change?

Ubik1 · 05/07/2015 10:53

I'm sure it's easy to have a very nice life in a Muslim country. I've travelled in the Middle East and people were, on the whole, friendly and welcoming.

But what do you do about the millions upon millions of displaced people in Syria or the terror attacks in British citizens?

Is that nothing to do with the ideology of Islam? Should we just leave religion out of it when considering how to negotiate these world issues?

Am I being ignorant?

lushilaoshi · 05/07/2015 11:02

Ubik1 I think you are right in part in that it has to do with a small minority of peoples' interpretation of the ideology of Islam, and that this interpretation has been brought about by many complex, non-religious factors such as tribal culture.

The problem is that some people on this thread seem to have confused the religion of Islam with the ideology of extremism. These are separate but related things. When people call it 'a religion that oppresses women and condones flogging people to death', what they should be saying is an interpretation of Islam that oppresses women and condones flogging.

Flipflops, I live in the Emirates. And I'm not concerned at all that it will change for the worse in this respect.

Gemauve · 05/07/2015 11:05

Not sure what that's got to do with Islam generally, though.

Good thing Saudi Arabia don't fund a large proportion of mosques in this country, and that Wahabism isn't a major strange in British Islam. No, wait...

NewFlipFlops · 05/07/2015 11:07

Thanks lushi, good to hear.

lushilaoshi · 05/07/2015 11:11

Saudi Arabia is one thing, Gemauve, Islam another.

And FWIW, my husband's uncle is an imam in Saudi Arabia. He doesn't condone flogging bloggers.

Gemauve · 05/07/2015 11:12

When people call it 'a religion that oppresses women and condones flogging people to death', what they should be saying is an interpretation of Islam that oppresses women and condones flogging.

Could you show me the Muslim opposition to flogging people to death? What has, say, the government of the Emirates had to say on the topic? What have the Muslim Council or Britain, MPAC and other Muslim organisations had to say on the topic?

Here's a google search for what the MCB have had to say about Raif Badawi. Impressive, isn't it?

www.google.co.uk/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=RAIF+BADAWI+site:.mcb.org.uk&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&gfe_rd=cr&ei=zwKZVbiXHoWkiAb3kYEo

Gemauve · 05/07/2015 11:13

my husband's uncle is an imam in Saudi Arabia. He doesn't condone flogging bloggers.

What's he doing to stop it?

Ubik1 · 05/07/2015 11:23

But the 'ideology of extremism' is to be found within the pages of the Koran.

I think it's impossible to separate religion from politics in this situation.

My understanding is that this is a sectarian conflict between Sunni and Shia Muslims. And that Muslim states are funding Syrian rebels against Shia President Assad.

Arab States are complicit in this and religion is at the heart of it.

There is an unwillingness to grasp the nettle - what is it that attracts British people to Islamic state? The answer seems to be that it offers a pure' Islamic existence.

Living in the Middle East , you may have a different perspective.

lushilaoshi · 05/07/2015 11:27

My husband's uncle has done nothing to stop it, because there is nothing he can do without putting himself at risk. I don't suppose you've been doing anything to stop it, either. This doesn't prove that he or you condone it though, does it?

Anyway, it is a GOVERNMENT practice in Saudi Arabia to impose an extreme interpretation of Shari'ah. Not all Muslim countries prescribe flogging as a form of punishment (and a number of non-Muslim countries do - look at Singapore).

And governments of other Gulf countries have not spoken up not because they think it's a good thing, but because they don't want to piss off their richest, most powerful neighbour. It's about politics, not religion.

Why should Muslims in general have say anything about it, anyway, in order to show people like you that they don't condone it?