lets try again with the anti islamophobia, shall we!

[karbonfootprint]

Well, I did start a thread about this recently, but it is full of discussion about terrorists, and events in other countries......

Just talking about this country, the UK, and Muslim and non Muslim British people, lets just look after each other, and stand up for each other against intolerance and racism, and be friends!

what is it that attracts British people to Islamic state?

People that want to kill gays find the opportunity to kill gays attractive.

People that want to rape the kaffir women find the opportunity to rape kaffir women attractive.

Why wouldn't they?

My husband's uncle has done nothing to stop it, because there is nothing he can do without putting himself at risk.

Quite a lot of German priests condemned the holocaust, at great risk to themselves.

Why should Muslims in general have say anything about it, anyway, in order to show people like you that they don't condone it?

Because the streets with filled with British Muslims demanding the death of Salman Rushdie. Now they're claiming that they don't support murder. It would be nice to know which it is. The MCB chairman said that death was too good for Rushdie, for example.

Ubek1, I have a completely different perspective. From where I'm standing, it looks a lot like politics masquerading as religion, or religion being used for political ends.

And quite a lot more German priests didn't. Doesn't make them Nazis.

The streets are not 'full' of Muslims demanding Rushdie's death. You are using tabloid language here. And who's 'they'? And do you really think the MCB represents all Muslims in the UK? Never mind the millions and millions who live outside the UK? Or that if the MCB issued some kind of statement that it would make one iota of difference?

Gemauve, you're determined not to address my point. My husband is a Muslim and he is just an ordinary, liberal kind of guy. This applies to the vast majority of Muslims. The extremists are just that: they twist religion to fit their own ideals.

But at the heart of it is two religious factions vying for power.

Do you live in a benign Islamic country? Do you live in a place where politics and religion are kept separate? Equality? Democracy?

Is that what true Islam looks like?

The extremists are just that: they twist religion to fit their own ideals.

No True Scotsman

My husband is a Muslim and he is just an ordinary, liberal kind of guy.

As, we are told, are the families whose teenagers left to join ISIS.

Lush - you won't win this argument. The are far too many people on mn who refuse to accept that any Muslim is peaceful.

What I find scary is that some of these mnetters using the them and us language work in universities, schools, hospitals and public services. Their views are pretty appalling to me and I find them more sinister than the liked of the EDL who wear their hatred proudly on their faces. I wonder if mnetters who label all Muslims as one homogenous mass of violent extremists (and passive observers too for not protesting enough, oh the irony!) Carry their prejudices and hate through to their working lives?

Ubik1, I'd say the Emirates are reasonably benign. Politics and religion are not entirely separate, and it's definitely not equal or democratic. And what do you mean about 'true Islam'? Doesn't that depend on the believer? I think I'm missing your point though.

And Gemauve, you can fuck right off with the blatant implication that my husband is a terrorist in the making.

The are far too many people on mn who refuse to accept that any Muslim is peaceful

Sorry, but just as unreasoned prejudice against muslims should be challenged, I believe this sort of thing should also be addressed wherever it appears (and it appears a lot on MN)

Please can you link to any post ... any at all ... where someone's refused to accept that any muslim is peaceful?

As when I've asked similar things before, I won't hold my breath ...

Puzzled read gems post above insinuating that Muslims are not liberal. Don't try and be disingenuous about the level of obvious hatred on this thread.

I was in a city centre yesterday and witnessed a bunch of edl this verbally abusing some young Muslims who were quietly protesting against isis and inviting questions from non Muslims about Islam. I was thoroughly ashamed of the uneducated edl thugs, what an embarrassment to or country. Barely one if them could string a sentence together. Despite being sworn at spat at and advised the Muslims remained calm, smiled and continued to try and engage.

Is sad to read hatred and prejudice from mnetters who I thought were reasonable, kind, wise and funny people.

Lush, I can see what you're saying and I am of the same opinions as you.

And take a look at Gemauve's post at 11:44! Apparently Muslims are only masquerading as ordinary people: in fact they are actually rabid terrorists just dying to get to Syria so they can sever some heads. My sweet, gentle husband is actually a closet extremist and it's just a matter of time before he starts beating me and making me wear a burka. I am obviously in denial.

Thanks Vanilla :)

I apologise for that comment.

My badly-made point was that every time there is an outrage, the perpetrators' families are on TV talking of the liberal and decent tendencies of the perpetrator. It has become background noise.

Background noise to you gem perhaps but not to others. Speak for yourself.

Do you know any Muslim people? You must come across then in your daily working life? Do you carry your prejudices into your working life? I'm curious to know how those with views similar to yours operate and behave around ordinary Muslims (whom you clearly feel are threatening to you).

I notice OP hasn't been back. What a shocker.

Oh look another thread about Islam going really really well.

America is one of the worst inhumane countries. Public flogging in Saudi? As long as Guantanamo is open there is nothing they can say about human rights anywhere in the world. Guantanamo is an evil evil place where terrible inhumane torture has been inflicted upon innocent people. Don't talk to me about the evils of Islam when such evil is tolerated and even lauded. Nobody gives a flying fuck about that

My sweet, gentle husband is actually a closet extremist

The "radicalisation" narrative is that sweet, gentle teenagers see some videos and are instantly converted into extremists. That gives the parents and wider family a get out of jail free card: it was nothing to do with them, it was teh internetz.

I'm perfectly happy to believe that your husband is sweet and gentle. I suspect, however, that he could watch as many youtube videos as there are hours in the day and remain sweet and gentle. The denial of responsibility by families which will accept no agency for what their children end up believing, and blame it all on teh interntez, does the Muslim community no favours. It implies all teenage Muslims are just a video away from radicalisation. That's clearly untrue: but a more realistic discussion of why children do become ISIS brides (because their families are extremists, in the London case) gets driven out.

If Muslim extremism is a tiny minority, as seems most likely, then the Muslim community needs to stop saying that extremists are just ordinary Muslims who saw a video. because a community that consists of people who are just one video from murder is rather frightening.

A better narrative is that there are a small minority of Muslims, rejected by the vast majority, who raise their children in extremism and therefore that needs to be dealt with. If extremism is a minority interest, then surely this would not be offensive to the non-extremist majority?

Puzzled read gems post above insinuating that Muslims are not liberal. Don't try and be disingenuous about the level of obvious hatred on this thread

I didn't address anything said about whether or not muslims are "liberal" - as I'm sure you're aware; I asked instead for links supporting the allegation that that "The are far too many people on mn who refuse to accept that any Muslim is peaceful"

Still waiting ...

Apology accepted, Gem. But homicidal psychopaths are not generally in the habit of warning people of their intentions, are they? Whenever you hear about a murder the relatives/next door neighbours always say 'oh he was such a nice, quiet man'. They're not defending said murderer's actions: just expressing their shock.

Hey Pyjamas :)

A better narrative is that there are a small minority of Muslims, rejected by the vast majority, who raise their children in extremism and therefore that needs to be dealt with. Yes, and that's what Muslims have been telling people till they're blue in the face, but no one's interested in hearing that.

But homicidal psychopaths are not generally in the habit of warning people of their intentions, are they?

They often are. There's an escalating pattern of violence: serial killers have usually harmed animals, attacked other children when young, committed violent crimes particularly against women, and interest in other psychopaths, etc, etc. Brady had a long stream of convictions, had been reading books on Nazi atrocities, etc, etc. We've talked about the nuanced legal action Sonia Sutcliffe won, but it did not extend to the claim that she didn't know.

Yes, and that's what Muslims have been telling people till they're blue in the face

That's not my impression.

What's being said is that extremism arises de novo in households that have not an extremist thought in their heads, caused by "grooming" on "The Internet", about which the parents can do nothing. It's bollocks: the parents are up to their necks in it. But instead, "the community" rallies around and says that the parents (and by extension the community) can do nothing and it's all someone else's fault. The claim is that until the moment they leave for ISIS, blow themselves up on a tube train or whatever, no-one could have known anything, because nothing they said or did gave the slightest impression of them being anything other than a hard-working teaching assistant.

I think it's disingenuous to position people who are trying to think critically about Islam as on a par with the EDL.

This immediately shuts down any discussion because people are scared of being branded a bigot.

And yet they are big questions and we should be able to discuss them.

Gem: your last paragraph is addressing a different point entirely. I am also of the opinion that the families of some of these extremists know, or at least suspect, what is going on.

The point I made was that the families themselves are in the vast minority. And there are many, many Muslims who do make this point, but the press just isn't interested. Hence your impression.

Oh look another Muslim bashing, they're all paedo loving closet terrorist thread under the guise of "critical thinking" or showing concern for the poor downtrodden Muslim woman thread. Bored were you?
toad some great points to think about
I'm a Muslim I'll apologise when all white Christians apologise for Dylan roof gunning down all those people in church or for the 8 black churches that were burned down since; I'll apologise when all middle aged white male entertainers apologise for savile and his ilk; I'll apologise when all north Koreans apologise their regime; I'll apologise when all Americans stand up and apologise for slaughter of native Americans, slavery and inherent racial discrimination which still continues to this day, for Vietnam, for drone strikes killing Pakistani babies indiscriminately, for Guantanamo bay; I'll apologise when all Israelis do for killing the thousands of Palestinians they have since the creation of Israel. Don't expect an apology any time soon

I think it's disingenuous to position people who are trying to think critically about Islam as on a par with the EDL.

Similarly, it's disingenuous to claim that everyone who criticises Western society is a violent extremist: plenty of decent people have at various points been members of the RCP or the SWP even if they did turn out to be rape cults.

However, there has been an unfortunate strain in political Islam to think that they will get more "respect" if they shout very loudly about killing people. Various people have written thoughtfully about this (See here) but the tendency hasn't gone away; there's a claim made that we should recognise this for the metaphor and rhetoric that it (allegedly) is. Mosques have the same problem; at least two Birmingham mosques have engaged in open hate speech calling for the murder of gays, and then fallen back on either "free speech" or "metaphor" defences.

1. It is not illegal (nor should it be) to say that you believe homosexuality to be immoral.

1. It is not illegal (nor should it be) to say that you believe same-sex marriage to be wrong, and to refuse to officiate in such marriages.

1. It is illegal (and should be) to call for the murder of gays.

Plenty of Christian churches in the UK argue 2. Some, fewer, argue 1. No UK church argues 3, and anyone who did would be arrested.

Green Lane Mosque in Sparkbrook openly argues 3.

You don't have to be the EDL to regard that as wrong.