lets try again with the anti islamophobia, shall we!

[karbonfootprint]

Well, I did start a thread about this recently, but it is full of discussion about terrorists, and events in other countries......

Just talking about this country, the UK, and Muslim and non Muslim British people, lets just look after each other, and stand up for each other against intolerance and racism, and be friends!

oh and some interesting reading :)

www.islamswomen.com/articles/do_muslim_women_have_rights.php

The west have fuck all to do with the creation of ISIS clean, they are a branch of a particularly brutal interpretation of Islam which has been about for centuries.

Their main aim is to crush the westernisation and tolerance in the majority of Muslims. They will not rest until there is one Muslim voice, one Muslim leader and one Muslim state.
They are killing more Islamic 'brothers and sisters' than they are westerners.

Also, air strikes are very effective and are hugely accurate nowadays. It is not the indiscriminate 'bombing' of old - and the 'ordinary' Muslims and citizens of the countries that ISIS are invading want them to be crushed.

ISIS is not representative of Islam and most modern Muslims have abandoned the whole 'women as lesser beings' stuff - but that's not headline or sound bite worthy, is it?

That was to Ghosty by the way.

Oh dear the decent has begun :)

well I will take the advice of yesterday and hide it - I hope one day MN can have a serious and rational discussion rather than all the vitriol and ignorance

Peace everyone I'm off to enjoy the sun xxxx

All the while I see local Muslim women in burka and niqab trailing round behind their western dressed husbands during the heatwave I will have an opinion that Islam has some very unpleasant and misogynistic traits.

ISIS is not representative of Islam and most modern Muslims have abandoned the whole 'women as lesser beings' stuff - but that's not headline or sound bite worthy, is it?

I think you are very wrong. Come and live in parts of London and see the women shuffling about in this heatwave in full length burkas and niquabs with their husbands in shorts and tshirts next to them.

Also - who are you to say what is Islamic and what's not? The people flocking to Syria consider themselves to be Muslims. The man who murdered the tourists in Tunisian considered himself to be Muslim. You can't just say only the nice law-abiding people are "real Muslims" same as you can't say only non-peadophile priests are real Catholics.

ghosty I'm not sure it's fair to say that most Muslims do not treat women as inferior. If you look at Muslim countries, women have vastly fewer rights than men.

It is an uncomfortable truth that the way Islam is practiced in most parts of the world today, discriminates against women and homosexuals.

Hufty I didn't say anything about 'real' Muslims, neither did I say anything about what 'is Islamic' or not.

What I said was that isis is borne from a particularly brutal and violent strand of Islam that has been around for centuries.

You misinterpreted my post completely.

Sunsets - your comments are really offensive. Have you read the thread title? The EDL tagline of paedophilia is used mainly by ignorant racists. Like every other religious book, the Koran has to be taken in context. At that time marrying young children was not considered deviant. Our own king richard II married isabelle when she was aged 6/7. Jesus is a much loved prophet for Muslims.

Toad - your post was brilliant. As a lapsed Christian I can relate.

Why is is so hard to believe I just want it all to stop, and want everyone to be nice. I am not going to apologise that the reality I am living in doesn't neatly fit into a particular MN classification or definition.

Because for someone who claims to have so many lovely Muslim 'friends', you've been busy slagging Muslims off left, right and centre on other threads with your 'stories' that would put a Daily Mail journalist to shame.

I've lived in a predominantly Muslim are for 40+ years and I've never read so much utter bullshit.

*area

Agree with worra and cheeky completely.

Further evidence that western intelligence agencies fueled the rise of, and funded, isis.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/03/us-isis-syria-iraq

Clean has no one ever told you not to believe everything you read in the press? The guardian has its own agenda and a lot of lazy journalism.

Muslim ideals are on the whole not compatible with life in the UK. Basic Muslim teaching is that all who do not follow Islam are inferior and should be killed / conquered. Islam has no place in the UK.

Cheeky - "our own king richard II married isabelle when she was aged 6/7"

Isabelle of France (1389-1409), oldest daughter of King Charles VI, was not quite seven years old when she married Richard II as his second wife in 1396. [..] In the Middle Ages princely and aristocratic marriages were often contracted on behalf of young children for reasons of diplomacy or for other material advantages. Canon law, however, decreed that such marriages should not be consummated until both parties were of age, at least twelve for a girl and fourteen for a boy.

The problem with Muhammeds marriage to 6yo Aisha is that he clearly consummated the marriage when she was 9, indeed as soon as she got well. This is why the age of consent for girls under Sharia is 9. In Iran they can see the health etc issues and keep trying to raise the AoC but come up against Mo's example, and as Sharia is the ultimate law there they have to stick with 9.

Also of course, Richard was just another king :) Muhammed was the founder of a religion...

Cheeky, the difference is that western civilisations have moved on a bit since the fourteenth century. Islam has not.

I don't see your point xenu. Apart from the obvious double standards. Consummation at 9, 10, 11, 12.... depending on what source you read. If richard did consummate his marriage with his 6 year old bride when she was 12 is that somehow more commendable than consummation with her age 9?

My point was that taking every single aspect of any religion out of context is not useful. There are parallels of similar behaviour in all societies of that time. Sadly, child marriage is so prevalent today in so many cultures and societies. If you pick apart any society you will often see parallels of similar behaviour in our own society. We mustn't let the right wing politicians and media inflexible our ability to analyse constructively.

Ghosty of course there are crazy quotes from the Bible, and I would agree. My fave verse is Exekiel 23:20 "Men with members like asses and emissions like horses" - as it can be primly translated :)

I'm not a Xtian or Jew but I understood that the Bible was not the dictate word of God (as is the Koran?)

I only quoted 4.34 in response to a poster that stated "the Koran does not oppress women". If you can "take or leave" the Koranic verses which you don't like then I have no issue and apologise to you.

However in that case I'm not sure how Muslim you are?

Kard - I'm not going to get into a debate with you. There's no point because any article or evidence I produce will be refuted as you are not open to any debate at all.

I really cannot understand how people like you learn to hate so vehemently. Taking the advice of ghost and I'm off to enjoy the sunshine.

Cheeky
consummation at 9 is worse than 12, though both are very wrong.
In "the west" we have raised the AoC due to human progress, in the same way we have helped women's rights? (or rather, women have fought for those rights with some success. Often against ingrained religious and societal pressure :))
Islam is stuck in the 7th century

Xenu - absolutely wrong! !! Consummation at 9 AND 12 is equally wrong. You enjoy your double standards and twist them to suit, I'm off to sit in the garden.

I'd say it goes both ways - being tolerant with no tolerance in return will never work, and you have to consider that the Muslim community needs to actively rile against fanaticism as non Muslim do against racism and islamophobia - and therefore activities around the world will always form part of this discussion as the global events are very much part of the problem and in some cases all of the problem. All communities need to come together condemning all of it - otherwise we go round in a pointless cycle of argument akin to shouting in to the wind.

I think Islam needs reform for the 21st century. It needs to accept homosexuality and equality for women.

Isis does not offer this - it's the reverse in the 'Caliphate.' What I find surprising is that when I see pictures of Isis flinging gay people off buildings or drowning 'spies' or beheading children I react with horror. But ordinary people are flocking to join this 'Caliphate,' in full knowledge of what goes on. 3000 from Tunisia, 1000 from the UK. So it must be attractive -to educated British young men and women. Does it represent an ideal Islamic state? Or something else?

Surely the way forward is some sort of reform which recognises and incorporates 21st centuryWestern liberal values which, while not perfect, are better than the current incarnation of the 'Caliphate'

Soooo.....no evidence that Jesus said offensive things about women the way that Mohammed did? If you take offence at MY comments, why then do you seem to respect some guy who wrote that men are superior to women and who had sex with a little girl? I just don't get it.