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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

lets try again with the anti islamophobia, shall we!

240 replies

karbonfootprint · 03/07/2015 22:38

Well, I did start a thread about this recently, but it is full of discussion about terrorists, and events in other countries......

Just talking about this country, the UK, and Muslim and non Muslim British people, lets just look after each other, and stand up for each other against intolerance and racism, and be friends!

OP posts:
Smellyoulateralligator · 03/07/2015 23:41

I am ghosty Grin. I can see how I came across all arsey. Good luck for tonight and the aftermath! Goodnight. Smile

Smellyoulateralligator · 03/07/2015 23:43

Oh and sorry ghosty Flowers

cleanmachine · 04/07/2015 00:02

Can I ask a question? I saw an all jazeera report which stated that conversion to Islam is fast growing. Especially in France after the hebdo murders , and in America amongst the Latino population. I was amazed at these stats given the global mauling and bad press Islam gets.

Id be really interested to hear from any Muslims, non Muslims, converts etc about why they think Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. The report suggested that people looking to criticise Islam would often research it and find they could relate to it but it must be more than this?

And yes, yes to tolerance and intolerance if any and all prejudice.

SmillasSenseOfSnow · 04/07/2015 01:53

It was my understanding that many islamic countries count children as being muslim on their records, which contributes, as do birth rates, as do conversions for the sake of e.g. marriage (look up the de-conversion rates, I understand most leave Islam again pretty damn quickly).

It's all hot air and a further attempt to 'big-up' Islam (and sometimes an attempt to intimidate). Just as various other religions do about themselves. Nothing makes you feel more secure in your questionable beliefs than a huge number of other people sharing them.

Atheism is growing faster, as far as I know. But then that's not a religion, so people can 'legitimately' omit that fact when claiming to be the 'fastest growing religion' and using that to suggest Allah is therefore truly the one true god and that people are seeing this and flocking to him.

AlpacaLypse · 04/07/2015 02:04

As a Christian I am fighting quite hard against an instinct to go and clobber the very nasty Islamic State arsewipes who are busy making life a misery for families in Syria and Iraq. Give me hugs sisters, I feel an urge to vote in favour of air strikes.

MaidOfStars · 04/07/2015 02:08

Alpaca, that's tongue in cheek? Air strikes?

LucyBabs · 04/07/2015 02:33

Uh fuck religion and all the shit it causes. I will never support a religion that holds women and children as second class citizens. And yes air strikes if it wipes out Isis but then innocents will always suffer

Toadinthehole · 04/07/2015 03:05

cleanmachine

My two cents' worth.

First, partly it's due to simple demographics. Muslim populations have higher fertility rates.

Second, it's due to an association between Christianity and colonialism. Islam is seen as anti-colonial.

Thirdly, Christianity has been massively rejected in its heartland. Islam hasn't. I will not suggest that Christians receive more discrimination than Muslims. However, Muslims do have an advantage in that Islam as a recent import, doesn't have the same background.

Finallyy, it is as a replacement for traditional Christianity. I am a 40 year old traditional hymn-singing Anglican. And there is hardly anybody else my age left, even less amongst younger people. The traditional churches - the Anglicans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans are all dead in the water except in North America and excepting the dead cat bounce in eastern Europe. They are custodians of ancient monuments who lost their role as custodian of the nation's morals half a century ago.

On Sundays, when I listen to the choir singing Byrd and Tallis, I think that my generation will probably be the last one to hear this stuff sung live and for free.

Christianity like mine has been very partially replaced by a debased sort that doesn't require its leaders to study New Testament Greek, Old Testament Hebrew, classical Biblical scholarship or systematic theology to anything like the level traditionally required and (until recent years at least) placed sole emphasis on evangelism and none on charitable work. The intellectual basis of Christianity is being hollowed out year on year. Subjects like theology, philosophy of religion, church history and Biblical studies have largely been replaced in the universities by sociological alternatives like religious studies.

By contrast, Muslims (as far as I can see) still preach what they've always preached, their style of worship is the same, and in Islam's heartland, one can study Islam (as opposed to a sociological study of Islam) in their universities. When I compare what Muslims do in the mosque with what modern Christians do in church, I have to say that I relate to the Muslims more.

And there is this:

Uh fuck religion and all the shit it causes.

which makes me think, given the hatred, if one's going to practice a religion, it might as well be Islam, which doesn't try to be conciliatory.

And if I were a Muslim, I don't think the existence of ISIS or jihadists would make me doubt my religion. It is easy to distinguish the average atheist's morals from Stalin just as it is easy to distinguish the average Christian's morals from Savonarola, if you make half an effort and employ half a brain cell. Belief (or no-belief) in God doesn't imply anything - it is how you interpret it that counts.

SlaggyIsland · 04/07/2015 04:35

Airstrikes? And fuck the "collateral damage" I suppose?

SlaggyIsland · 04/07/2015 04:38

Toadinthehole excellent post.

Canyouforgiveher · 04/07/2015 04:48

really interesting post Toad. Am still digesting it. I think you have said something really worth listening to.

purdiepipesup · 04/07/2015 07:47

Excellent post, Toad. Is the vicar of your church one of the traditional, theologically-versed ones you mention in your post?

PyjamasLlamas · 04/07/2015 09:15

Toad A really interesting and different perspective. Thanks for that. I'm also mulling through it.

milliemanzi · 04/07/2015 09:18

You won't wipe out Isis with air strikes. That's a pretty naive way of thinking. Also shall we just call it what it is? Bombing.

karbonfootprint · 04/07/2015 09:24

I've been giving the benefit of the doubt to this OP but I do in fact think she is a stealth shit stirrer

Or how about this, worra.

some of my closest friends, people I love most in the world are Muslims, and lovely kind wonderful people, who are getting abuse on a regular basis, on buses and trains. either directed at them, or just witnessing it, and its is horrible and hurtful and they don't deserve it.

AND I WANT IT TO STOP

and at the same time I am currently living an in Muslime area, and while the vast majority are just totally normal people going about normal lives in a normal way, there are some that are causing me aggravation in one way or another because I am not a Muslim, and it is frustrating, and makes me angry

AND I WANT IT TO STOP

Why is is so hard to believe I just want it all to stop, and want everyone to be nice. I am not going to apologise that the reality I am living in doesn't neatly fit into a particular MN classification or definition.

OP posts:
xenu1 · 04/07/2015 09:25

Hi. The problem with these threads is that so many of the pro-islam posters beg correction. "ghosty" on P1 for example:

"YANBU but it will go the same way sadly - full of people demanding Muslims stand up (ignoring when they do and are) and banging on about Islam being anti women (it isn't - the Koran is not anti women - some Muslims men and states are - a bit like in other non Muslim countries)"

The Koran specifically places women as inferior and allows men to beat their wives, One of the most famous suras is 4.34 ("Al Nisa") which clearly states that Allah made men superior to women and that wives are subject to physical abuse by husbands. If you are a Muslim and believe the Koran was dictated to Muhammad via the angel Gabriel then you have to accept that as Holy Writ and it explains why so man Muslim countries oppress women.

Why deny the tenets of your religion?

karbonfootprint · 04/07/2015 09:28

Last Wednesday evening, the hottest July day on record, incidently, my best friends husband put her and her toddler in a car, and drove them from London to Liverpool, to spend his two days off work with his parents. I love my friend and her baby so much. She has a health problem and can't drive. Her husband was fasting, and hungry and dehydrated. How could I not be scared and angry? I was scared and angry until they were safely back in London again.

OP posts:
lionheart · 04/07/2015 09:31

Those stats are interesting, Dough.

xenu1 · 04/07/2015 09:37

cleanmachine - wrt "fasted growing religion". many beliefs claim this. Most are born into a faith; very few freely convert (to any faith). In some arab countries it is illegal to be an atheist and helpful, at least, to profess Islam (wasn't it the same with the CoE in the UK till quite recently?). Indeed all Saudis are by definition Muslim, whatever they believe. There are freethinkers in the Muslim world but they keep silent, or face persecution (the punishment for apostasy from Islam is death).

cleanmachine · 04/07/2015 10:16

Toad thank you. Very very thought provoking post unlike some of the replies which didn't answer my question but used it to bash Islam further. The Al jazeera report commented on conversions specifically so my question wasn't really about those born into the faith in places like Saudi.

Re the air strikes, I think something needs to be done but am against strikes mainly because I believe the west have contributed to the creation and funding of isis and recent reports support the widely held notion that we are arming these beasts. But let's not look into the role of western powers in this awful situation, instead let's bash ordinary Muslim mnetters, especially those fasting and daring to drive whilst fasting....

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/british-arms-sales-to-the-middle-east-are-probably-fuelling-isis-says-jeremy-corbyn-10364998.html

The80sweregreat · 04/07/2015 10:17

Toad, your post was really interesting to me. Its true that the christian church has changed a lot. My own mum went every sunday, did lots of charity work and was a believer in the Mothers Union and church of enland morals and values. She detested the way things were trying to change.. More up to date hymns, clapping along, not her idea at all of how it should be ( in her eyes anyway ) but However hard they tried the same old people went along ( very few in a large council estate/ urban area) and today its a gospal church. The old one was pulled down years ago.
She kept her faith her whole 85 years, she saw it as a way of getting through life, the way some people turn to drink,or drugs maybe. I have never met anyone else with such a strong belief.
Out of 3 children, only my much older brother goes to church with his wife. His vicar is mid 30s had a job as a banker before and went to Uni later on in life in order to become ordained. The type my mum probably wouldnt have approve of!
If i tried to go along to my local C of E church i would be viewed with suspicion. I once spoke to a lady lay preacher who goes there and she agreed its a hard 'club' to join. Its not my thing, but i do think that the general attitude and stuffiness associated with church in general doesnt help their cause to keep people interested. Its a fasinating subject, many of my friends and peers do not know anything about religion or how a church funtions for example. only one lady i know who is a catholic, or was, now her child doesnt go to the Cathlic school anymore ,it seems to have dropped off a lot.

PyjamasLlamas · 04/07/2015 10:21

Wtf karbon you were worried about your friend for the whole weekend who was probably having quite a nice time in Liverpool. How do you know he was hungry and dehydrated? And he wasn't dehydrated he was thirsty, there's a difference. A 3 and half hour drive with no food and water. Ooooooh.
You need to get a life.

PyjamasLlamas · 04/07/2015 10:22

Or did you post your 'concern'
So that some posters can start quoting Ramadan road traffic accidents? Again. We already did this on another thread! Deja vu.

BabyFeets · 04/07/2015 10:26

Most of society is very easily manipulated by such papers as the daily mail.
People think It's okay to pick on certain groups because they are not part of that group.
The problem is their group will be the target on day and everyone will hate them.
So rather than join the hate and be manipulated try have your own mind

ghostyslovesheep · 04/07/2015 10:28

oh dear do I need edumacating Grin

And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire." (Leviticus 21:9)

When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her." (Deuteronomy 25:11-12)

Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean." (Leviticus 12:2)

"But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days." (Leviticus 12:5)

Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (I Timothy 2:11-14)

these are just a few examples from the Bible

most 'holy books' are of their time and reflect their time

Most Muslims like most Christians do not treat women as inferior

In other news I survived the night - despite the storm creating 4 shrieking girls at 3am - bacon butties have been eaten and they go home in half an hour!!!

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