To agree with this mail article

[fourmeatpies]

It's written by a fellow teacher and is nappy at school related, so those that find these things a touchy subject might not want to check it out.
www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2617186/Why-I-blame-middle-class-mothers-six-year-olds-sent-school-nappies-one-teachers-left-change-them.html
Why is it increasing, when will it stop? These subjects really need to be talked about instead of swept under the rug.

Please stop saying that parents of children with additional needs, disabilities and medical reasons are derailing the thread. (Fuck me how unwelcome on Mumsnet do I feel after the last couple of weeks here!!)

Have you read the article and seen the language? The disgust with which the author talks about the children she works with who are in nappies?

How do you think such language makes people feel about their child who is in nappies in school?

Again I would like to see the figures, including the reasons.

Also I would like to say that the very few children I know of who have been in nappies, at reception and at the end of preschool in the last few years here, who haven't got disabilities or medical needs, it has been due to fairly extreme extenuating circumstances

I repeat.

I have worked in school (TA, not a teacher) and i always work with EYFS and Key stage 1 children.

Every child i know who started at school in pull ups/nappies either already had a diagnosis of either a physical disability or were given one by the end of Key Stage 1, usually either Dyspraxia or an ASD.

Including my own now 8yo!

Its all very well saying 1600 a year start in nappies, but what percentage of those are disabled/SEN or are diagnosed within 2-3 years with one.

until THAT figure comes to light, that article and the claims of lazy parenting are absolute bollocks!

derxa, meatpies and Other generic posters

Do you realise Doctors do not instantly give out diagnoses? It can sometimes take years, if a child is flagged as having difficulties with langauge in nursery for example, it can be 2 or 3 years before a cause is found, in that time they are presumed to be NT.

Same thing with nappies, corodanation and so on.

Go on then Op,since you are convinced,despite all evidence,that parents are being lazy and deliberately keeping children in nappies,can you please outline how you intend to prevent this from occurring?

Of course,as an experienced teacher- you DO work professionally with children,don't you? you must know all the available strategies for giving support to the children and parents involved. I'm quite sure you can approach people with empathy and tact and can gently explain which medical professionals are likely to be able to assist.

Of course you must have the answer. Please tell- what would you do?

These are for the many parents of children who happen who have sn and who have had to deal with this kind of ignorance many times over.

I am amazed and heartened by the compassion shown on the sn threads.

Oddly enough,I do not think that the op has any answers of any variety,so I'm going to go away and do a massive pile of ironing before I say something obnoxious.

I work in a nursery school, 20 yrs ago we had no children start at 3 wearing nappies, a few wet pants but everyone pretty much toilet trained.
Now we have at least half a dozen every term starting in nappies/pull ups. Usually because parents don't want to put their lives on hold for a couple of weeks to toilet train. I know this because that is what the parents tell me. They say they are busy, they couldn't stay home for a week or two, (I'm not talking about working parents) they thought we would do it at school, etc.
I am sure the main reason children are toilet trained later is disposable nappies/pull ups where the child doesn't feel wet and uncomfortable. Good old terry nappies felt soggy, they smelt, they took hours to soak/wash and most parents toilet trained between 2-3 as much to get rid of the chore of terry nappies as for the child's benefit.
I am not talking about children with any SEN, although I appreciate you may not know if a child has SEN at age 3.

I am not a generic poster and not unsympathetic to parents whose children have SEN. In fact very much the opposite. I worked as a SALT for 17 years both in NHS clinics and special schools. The caseloads grew and grew over the years until we were completely overwhelmed. I left the profession and became a teacher because I wanted to make a real difference to children's lives. We had so many cases that the NHS/Govt deemed that we saw children in 6 week blocks which were useless since often children were discharged at the end of that time. Many parents didn't turn up for appointments. I worked hard on differential diagnosis to try and identify which children had specific difficulties.

Children do get sent to school who are not potty trained for no good reason. I would not like to change those nappies. Would you? Here is a link from the Independent.
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/hundreds-of-children-over-the-age-of-5-are-sent-to-school-wearing-nappies--and-teenagers-as-old-as-15-cant-use-the-toilet-on-their-own-9295290.html

Mini-pirate has cloth at night, get's a big thumbs up from me.

I would not like to change those nappies. Would you?

No, but i have to because i chose to be the guardian of a child with needs.

I have a bit of compassion you see.

Children do get sent to school who are not potty trained for no good reason

....And then later they are diagnosed with a SN.

I'm a bit dubious about the Independent article claiming that 15 year olds with no special needs can't use the toilet on their own. If a 15 year old can't use a toilet, the something is wrong, they just haven't figured out what the problem is.

Anyone who thinks it's laziness to have an older child should attempt to change the nappy of a 7 year old, I have bruises from kicking!
You seem to have this idea that they will lay quietly and let you pull them about, No, they want to be up about and active and they are strong enough to do it!

Laziness and not bothering?
Yeah really fucking lazy.

derxa
1)Did you read that artical?
2)Do you understand the point that people are trying to get across, about how not having a diagnoses isn't the same as not having SN?
3)is Fourmeatpies you?

The idea that a 15 year old is untrained for no good reason is total bollocks IMO. The same goes for the relevance of the statistic about 7-11 year olds in nappies in the DM article.

I've taught several children still in nappies and every child I know who has still been in nappies over the age of 7 has had either SEN or a medical issue. Without exception. Not so much for all the reception new starters but many of those children will go on to be diagnosed with issues later.

That's very true noble and highlights the bigger issue really of the problem of getting a diagnosis (or more importantly support!) for children with additional needs. Even when you are into the system whereby a problem has been identified you are generally met with massive waiting lists before getting close to a diagnosis.

I think there are a lot of combined and confused issues here.

Some children have SN and some are undiagnosed. Obviously that's not their or their parents' fault. Schools need to provide for these children.

Probably late toilet training is more common than it used to be because remember only a generation or two ago it was acceptable to be really brutal to small children. Many people probably toilet trained by hitting children for any failures and a large number of children would have responded to that by learning faster. It doesn't make it OK, but for many children it had that effect.

While I think it's really good that we are much gentler now and the emphasis is more on letting children take their time, I do think there are some parents who take the gentleness to an extreme and don't ever want to do anything that might even slightly upset their child (I know some of these parents. The type who will carry their 5yo up hill and down dale because they don't want to walk, let them stay up till 11pm every night because they don't want to deny them their preferences, etc.) and when it comes to potty training if their child wants to stay in a nappy they let them, because they're reluctant to ever impose their will. Even they are usually sorted by 5 thanks to peer pressure, help from nursery etc.

Actually 1600 school starters still in nappies seems like a really small number to me. That can't be more than 1 or 2 per school and surely SN will account for most of that.

Well, as the mum of an eight year old who still soils occasionally I'm glad his school had a more compassionate outlook! He was still in pull ups at 4.5 years old when he started reception - mainly because he was soiling 5 - 6 times a day! It turned out that, because he realised that going to the toilet near the end of session at nursery, meant he got back to find his toys being cleared away, he held...and damaged his bowel to the point that he could hold over a week's worth of poo with no discomfort at all.

We tried rewards, had him sitting on the loo after each meal for 10 minutes doing rocking/rolling and blowing exercises (to train his bowel to push), he was on poo softeners and laxatives (the first of which he is still on, the second now only occasionally). We had to keep a diary of when, how much and what type of poo he was producing. He was perfectly dry at night, very rarely had wee accidents and took himself off to the loo when he felt a wee coming. But couldn't feel a poo. The bowel was distended and distorted by all is holding. We were warned it could take years to get it back to the right size and shape.

Our bowel specialist contacted the school before he joined, who got an additional TA to help him and his friend (who is autistic and had similar problems). We changed to training pants with the help of her and ERIC (a group for incontinence in children) - we'd never heard of the pants before, we thought it was normal pants with plastic pants over the top (which he leaked through) or pull ups, (which were too absorbent). These were plastic pants in the centre with a towelling inner and a normal looking 'pants' type outer - so he wasn't embarrassed changing for PE.

With the TA's help and us continuing with his routine at home our DS finally got out of the training pants in year 1 and by year 2 was only soiling at the end of the school day - which was fine, we were used to it and he didn't have to have any humiliation at school.

Now in year 3 he soils perhaps twice a week, goes to the loo more regularly but still can't get the signal to go for poos so sometimes just makes it to the loo because of the routine we have rather than a feeling the need to go. But he's making progress.

I am just so thankful to his TA and his teachers for the support they've given us and DS. Without them he would, I am sure, still be badly soiling. He trusted his TA so much that he would tell her if he felt soiled - which must be very hard for a little boy who knows everyone around them is going to the toilet properly. With no fuss and a lot of encouragement she built his confidence and made him realise that he could do this. And he did. Wish some of the kids had someone just like her.

So we're not all middle class, too lazy, etc. Maybe some teachers are too judgemental and think they know it all or have had it just a wee bit too easy with their own kids.

The Independent article is woolly to the exreme, but without the shaming and vitriol of The Mail

I would not like to change those nappies. Would you?

Well, changing nappies is no-ones favourite job, along with cleaning up vomit and toilet accidents - but if you have a child with disabilities, this may well be part of their care until old age.

If you work in certain areas (with young children, the very old and people with additional care needs or medical conditions), there will be occassion when you have to deal with bodily fluids, and perform intimate care - it is part of the job, and the government code of practice dealing with intimate care states that practitioners must :

maintain the dignity of the individual child. and
are sensitive to their needs and preferences

It is also stated that as, It can take around ten minutes to change an individual child.... Ten minutes is not dissimilar to the amount of time allocated to work with a child on an individual learning target. Changing time can be a positive learning time and an opportunity topromote independence and self-worth.

Overall, paramount as best practice the practitioner must

Respect each child’s personal dignity

When I change my little boy, I respect him, and we chat and talk. I have heard him being changed at school and can hear him laughing with the TA - fortunately a million miles away from the lots of stomach-turning trips to the bathroom and embarrassment talked about in The Mail.

I don't believe the thread at all.

I don't teach children that young but just don't believe that there are many children, even at age 4, wearing a nappy who have no AN (diagnosed or not) or medical need.

I do teach children from 7 up and have never come across an NT child in a nappy. Some children sometimes wet or occasionally even soil themelves sure, but those are accidents or have psychological or medical explanations.

I do believe that the numbers of children in nappies are going up. But this will be because the number of children with additional needs is also going up.

My DD1 was toilet trained by 2.5 but right up to the age of 10 she wet her pants fairly regularly (once every couple of weeks or so). She is NT but has MH problems including anxiety and OCD which, for some reason, translated into her wetting out of stress or fear at a situation.

There is always a reason

Thank you Hazey for finding a way to put it into words.

I worry about some people. Not being toilet trained at an older-than-usual age is a special/addition need.

You cannot toilet train a child who is not physiologically ready. The sphincter muscles need to have sufficient tone and the child needs to have the cognition to understand what is happening and the physical ability to get to the toilet/ undress themselves. You cannot "make" it happen any earlier by starting early- you just end up with unhappy carers and children. Fwiw as I GP I very rarely see children over 3 or 4 with daytime continence issues and would be very worried about a teenager with one without a prior to diagnosis to explain it.

I am revolted of the adult baby fetish thing and the idea that people send messages like that to the parents of children with continence needs btw