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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think a surgeon should ask permission before drawing on your body

204 replies

Purringkittenmama · 17/06/2015 12:16

A while ago, I was referred to a breast surgeon for a lump to be investigated. Is it in any way OK, after being prodded for a few seconds, for him to turn to the (lovely) nurse with him, and say 'Do you have a pen?' before turning back to me and drawing on the area. Without asking me, warning me he was going to do this, anything. For the ultrasound people I think (although they seemed a bit taken aback to see that he'd marked it). AIBU to still feel angry/upset/ violated by this?

OP posts:
IKnowRight · 17/06/2015 14:58

I think that those of you being unkind to the op really ought to rein it in a bit, yes she was being unreasonable but she's acknowledged that and it must have been an awful experience. It's possible to tell someone they're being OTT without the frankly ridiculous "handing out grips" which seems to go on around here a lot these days. It was amusing the first time but I find it tiresome now and this situation really doesn't warrant the scorn.

saintlyjimjams · 17/06/2015 14:59

YANBU - he should have warned you (not least it might have been cold). It would have been polite.

I have seen some great consultants, and some bloody awful ones. I don't think I'd categorise one as 'great' if his inter-personal skills were so bad he couldn't even be bothered to explain he was going to draw on me (it takes what- 2 seconds? - and shows you're more than a lump of meat).

limitedperiodonly · 17/06/2015 14:59

Any physical contact between a HCP professional and a patient could be construed as an assault.

It's the law.

It's why responsible HCPs explain what they are doing and the need to do it.

We're not talking about a field hospital under fire when someone's leg is hanging off.

This is a consulting room with at least one person in the room who should be smart enough to be able to understand basic human interaction like: 'Please may I?' and 'Thank you, you can do your top up now'.

If you don't think they can manage that, how come they're clever enough to pass so many exams?

Purringkittenmama · 17/06/2015 14:59

I have just been out, and have thought further about all of the responses. Thank you to all, those who do and don't disagree with me.
Firstly, I do feel massive, massive sympathy for those who have been given a diagnosis which was worse than mine. I wish them all the very best, and am truly sorry if have offended them by being upset over something which, I understand, must seem completely trivial to them.
At the breast clinic though, none of us know what our eventual diagnosis will be, so at the point of being examined/ marked, we are all fearing the worst.
No, at the time I was not expecting the lump to be marked. Perhaps this was very naïve of me. As I mentioned in my original post, the ultrasound lady did also seem a bit bemused. She actually asked me to point to where the lump was, before saying 'Oh, Mr X has already marked it.'
Of course, in hindsight, I can understand his motivations, but it would have been nice to have been warned.

OP posts:
Haggswood · 17/06/2015 15:03

Hissy, you are quite quite wrong. There are plenty of surgeons out there who, as two posters already have pointed out, are quite exceptional at seeing the whole person, and treat their patients compassionately and holistically. I have a friend who is a mumsnetter and is also a breast surgeon, if I were a betting woman would put all the money I own on the fact that she responds to her patients as more than a set of symptoms.

Where, I'm sorry to hear about all your surgeries and chemo Flowers
I am going to disagree with your point that being drawn on is an extension of the examination. In my opinion it isn't, it's a preparatory procedure before the ultrasound, one that, by its very nature touches the patient and leaves a mark. And it was on the OPs breast, when you are dealing with intimate regions of the body you take extra care as an HPC, it is unwise and impolite not to do so. All of that to my mind would mean that before drawing on a breast a quick explanation and a "is that OK with you?" would be required. And how long would that take? A few words that can completely change the dynamic of the interaction, and potentially affect the doctor-patient relationship for the long term.

Haggswood · 17/06/2015 15:05

Not very kind of me to keep referring to you Purringkitten as the OP.

Hope all is well with you now.

teatowel · 17/06/2015 15:06

I have had many operations and I think the doctor drawing on you is just part of the examination. You can always see the concentration on their faces as they mark you up. No wonder they forget to mention it sometimes.I would forgive and forget. I hope you are ok

Tiptops · 17/06/2015 15:07

It's really unfair and insensitive of others to hijack the thread with their own experiences, negating the OP's feelings.

The OP's feelings are valid, regardless of anyone else's experience.

Fwiw, I think the surgeon should have displayed a bit of bedside manner and mentioned that they were going to draw on her. She is a person, not just a slab of meat. She was in a vulnerable and unusual position of being exposed intimately infront of strangers. A bit of kindness costs nothing.

AnUtterIdiot · 17/06/2015 15:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Heebiejeebie · 17/06/2015 15:16

Tiptops, isn't the point of ABIU to provide some counterbalance? If we're not allowed to say yes, your feelings were unreasonable, to 'negate' them, then this is a pretty pointless board. A post in health would have garnered v different responses.

Purringkittenmama · 17/06/2015 15:25

Haggswood- yes it did leave a mark. I had to scrub it with nail varnish remover when I got home as it was done in biro. Most of the friends that I have mentioned it to have been pretty shocked that it happened as it did, and if I have stopped any other mumsnetters being as shocked as I was, then that is good.
It sounds like you have a lovely friend. I'm glad- and glad that a lot of the other posters have had positive experiences with compassionate surgeons.
The one who I dealt with was very cold, and wouldn't discuss the results properly with me.
Him: 'It needs to be removed.'
Me: 'Why, if it's benign?'
Him: 'We just do.'
Me: 'But why, if it's benign?'
Him: 'We just do.'
Maybe that's why I'm still upset...

OP posts:
DayLillie · 17/06/2015 15:33

I think I would like a bit more information than that for anyone to remove something from me. YANBU

CallMeExhausted · 17/06/2015 16:12

It is necessary - YABU. It is not like he was drawing smiley faces on your buttocks!

I had orthopaedic surgery yesterday. The surgeon initialled my foot and drew the basic incision he was expecting to be doing, and the anaesthesiologist initialled it as well.

I wouldn't want to see it any other way.

I am inclined to think the surgeon wanted to be absolutely certain that what he was feeling was imaged in ultrasound. Sorry that a bit of ink is more important to you.

TattyDevine · 17/06/2015 16:15

I did find it amusing when my husband went in for a rotator cuff repair on his shoulder and came home with a big arrow pointing up to it as if to say "this is the one"!

And he couldn't wash properly for a while after so it was there for a week or so Grin

Alibabsandthe40Musketeers · 17/06/2015 16:21

I would have no problem with this - infact I did have no problem with this.

I really think it is a massive non-issue.

CrystalCove · 17/06/2015 16:25

It's really unfair and insensitive of others to hijack the thread with their own experiences, negating the OP's feelings

Right so whats the point of AIBU then if everyone just posts YANBU and agrees with OP?!

mamadoc · 17/06/2015 16:30

I'm a Dr but not a surgeon.
It is hard to always remember that what you regard as a normal, everyday part of the job might be upsetting to some patients.
Different people are distressed by different things and it's not always what you would think so it can be hard to be sure that you have explained exactly what each person wants to know.
It is, as others have said, completely routine to mark the area for US or for an op. It is to stop the Sonographer having to repeat the examination to find where the area is (which might extend beyond what OP noticed herself) so the idea is to reduce distress.
I would expect the majority of women to find the examination itself particularly the touching and prodding the worst part.
I expect the surgeon did think that that the marking was included in the consent to examination and did not need separate consent.
It was probably a bit remiss not to say some words of explanation. He may just have forgotten on this occasion.
There's no problem with you just providing some feedback in a letter or via PALS though. He likely does not realise that you were distressed at all and therefore will carry on the same way in future!

limitedperiodonly · 17/06/2015 16:38

Eh? So you'll go through an operation and all it entails and be scarred?

There are probably very good reasons for surgery but I'd expect more of an explanation than: 'we just do it.'

I was an avid reader of the My Operation feature in Take A Break because it was inadvertently funny and I'm like that.

Then there came one that pulled me up short because it was so fucking tragic.

The feature was written in a fake colloquial, dropped-intro way where you couldn't work out what was going on. It was also squeamish and coy.

The 60-something woman had vulval cancer and had to have 'an operation'.

That's how she described it. I've no doubt it was unavoidable and was a very serious situation. But no effort was made to explain the procedure or its consequences. I'm guessing the surgeon was one of those people who view patients as procedures to be got through on the list.

She had it done and after a few days on a catheter was taken to the loo by a nurse.

She wrote: 'I reached down to wipe and all my fluffy bits were gone.'

She wept. I'm not surprised.

I laughed out of shock at first and then thought how awful that would be.

What she was describing was the radical removal of all her external genitals and a good part of her vagina. Major disfigurement with nullification of sexual pleasure and possible implications for urinary continence.

All entirely necessary, no doubt, but you'd think the surgeon could have explained it to her and perhaps assigned someone else to talk it over in more detail

Luckily the nurse who helped her to the loo was on hand to dry her eyes.

Perhaps the most poignant part was when she explained to her husband, who was also in the dark, and he said: 'Cheer up, love. You're still here and it's not like we use those bits much any more these days.'

No, and that's the main thing and I hope she's still alive.

But the person lopping those bits off could have taken time to explain. It wouldn't have taken even half as much time as the actual procedure.

Purringkittenmama · 17/06/2015 16:38

Yes mamadoc, the touching and prodding was not pleasant. But I had prepared myself for that (although my legs were shaking as I was lying on the couch, both because I was so scared as to what the diagnosis might be, and because a stranger was touching me in an area not used to being touched by strangers!).
I think it was more the shock and indignity of how he carried out the marking (which, as I have said, I do acknowledge as being of benefit). Would you not like to be asked first?

OP posts:
loveandsmiles · 17/06/2015 16:39

I don't think this would have personally bothered me but I appreciate at the time you would be feeling very vulnerable and worried so that easily changes your perception on things - as long as you have a positive outcome OP, that's the main thing Flowers

mamadoc · 17/06/2015 16:43

The other point is that it is kind of necessary in a way to view the part of the body you are treating as just a body part.
I find that I need to concentrate just on what I am feeling, looking at, hearing and can't be too aware that it is attached to a person in that moment or it would detract from my ability to do the job. Especially for intimate areas. If you are too conscious that you are squeezing someone's boob or testicle then your embarrassment starts to get in the way of you doing the job.

Purringkittenmama · 17/06/2015 16:44

Limitedperiod, just read your post. That is truly shocking and appalling. Actually, it depresses me, the more I think about it, that there seem to be a good many out there who think that HCPs can treat people with complete disrespect. Why? (Although I do notice that a lot of the views supporting me are put forward by HCPs themselves).

OP posts:
mamadoc · 17/06/2015 16:46

I honestly do think that I would see the marking as a part of the whole thing I had consented to and not the worst part by far but you are entitled to feel differently of course.

Purringkittenmama · 17/06/2015 16:48

Your perception, mamadoc, I feel is clouded because you are a doctor. You would know what to expect. I didn't.
As for embarrassment...This man must feel hundreds of lumps each week! Surely a bit of politeness would not make him embarrassed?

OP posts:
MaliceInWonderland78 · 17/06/2015 16:50

Appropriate medical marks/indicators...........ok

Rabbit ears (with little eyes and a mouth) - leaving your nipple as the cute twitching nose............not ok (without consent)

The words "mild" and "Bitter" over each of your breasts.........also frowned upon (apparently).