To think a surgeon should ask permission before drawing on your body

[Purringkittenmama]

A while ago, I was referred to a breast surgeon for a lump to be investigated. Is it in any way OK, after being prodded for a few seconds, for him to turn to the (lovely) nurse with him, and say 'Do you have a pen?' before turning back to me and drawing on the area. Without asking me, warning me he was going to do this, anything. For the ultrasound people I think (although they seemed a bit taken aback to see that he'd marked it). AIBU to still feel angry/upset/ violated by this?

Uterus DH had an abscess under his arm and was drawn on to indicate the area for the surgeon.

I can't remember whether permission was asked to draw on him, but when the doctors left I had to take a picture, the arrow looked exactly like a cock to me!

Totally normal ime, has happened every time I've been in hospital.

Most importantly, this happened a while ago and you've since had the USS, can we trust that the results were good news Purringkittenmama?

Interesting, the HCPs on the thread (including me) do not think OP is BU.

It is usual practice to communicate what one is about to do to a patient before one does it.

I am going to go against the grain and say YANBU. Obviously you cannot be examined without being touched and drawing on you seems to be normal practice BUT it would not have taken any time at all for him to either ask/tell you he was going to touch you. Just to put you at ease in what can be a stressful experience for the patient.

I have had 2 c-sections and needed help with breastfeeding for both dc. Whenever a midwife needed to touch me she asked permission to touch my breasts first.

Well I've had lots of boob investigations due to regular lumps and bumps because of cystic breast disease. Everything has been benign so far and I've lumps since I was 25 - am now 55.

Once very early on the lovely boob man I saw, he was called Gerry Gilmore and probably not to everyone's taste, said something like, "now I'm just going to draw a circle around the lump so we know where we are investigating". That was the first time and I was always prepared in future. If he hadn't said that and so kindly, then I might have been taken aback too but who knows with hindsight.

What I would say though is that that first lump and the first mammogram and aspiration and then removal of the lump because it just kept coming back was the most stressful of all my breast investigations.

All my investigations have been benign. Mammo every year, usually at least three or four cysts that are aspirated; one or two cheeky little buggers that won't back down have been removed because the multiple aspirations cause scar tissue to develop. My tit man for years has been the lovely Keefah Mokbel the surgeon depicted in the C Word film that was on TV recently. I had absolutely no idea and the fact that he has been so kind and lovely to me over the years made me feel really really guilty because actually there has never been anything wrong with me and I'm incredibly privileged. But, I'll never forget the horror of that first lump and investigation and that makes me feel for the OP.

With love and hope and prayers for all those going through the really serious stuff. Sorry too for naming a couple of lovely surgeons but I thought some really kind and good care merited acknowledgement and hope that isn't against the rules.

Haggswood - I've already said that the op's experiences are no less valid than mine, however I still find the drawing on her without asking to be a trivial thing in the circumstances. She had, presumably, consented to a full breast examination. If her surgeon had walked over to her chair and suddenly yanked her top and bra up to perform the exam, then of course she would and should have felt violated - however, the op was already undressed and in the process of going through the exam - the drawing was just an extension of that.

My surgeon is one of the most caring and compassionate people I have ever met - the fact that he didn't talk me every single step of the way through what he was doing (purely down to concentration, I believe), doesn't and didn't make him any less so.

I also truly hope that the op has had the best result possible, but still believe she was being really quite U, and for the record, the OP has decided that she is too.

I think you're getting a hard time too OP and I hope all is well.

Some people here seem to think that talking to patients is not only unnecessary, but of no use because these heroes are in the business of saving lives.

It's extremely useful, not just from a human point of view but because in some cases it helps with diagnosis. Most people aren't admitted to hospital in an emergency situation with people yelling: 'stat'.

It is a slow process and there's a lot of waiting around.

Last time I was in hospital for a total of six weeks. Because I have an unusual condition a lot of medical students came to talk to me and practise their diagnostic skills. Their supervising consultants always asked for my permission, but it was so boring I was happy for the company.

Every single person was very respectful and made a point of asking permission for everything even if it was just testing my reflexes with a rubber hammer. So I don't think the medical professionals who dealt with me would think drawing on your tit without so much as a 'by-your-leave' would be acceptable.

Everyone was technically competent except for one young woman who was lovely but whose consultant warned me not to give any clues. I felt sorry for her because she had a great manner. But after I'd gone through all the routine tests countless times I realised she missed a lot.

The most outstanding was a bloke who was in his early 30s, so older than average. He was brilliant. He not only appeared to have the technical skills required for an examination but asked the right questions and listened and responded to the answers so he was the one who had the most complete picture. This took him about 15 minutes. I don't think that's too much to ask in a consultation.

To a surgeon, you are just a procedure. Understand this and you won't get so bent out of shape.

it's not personal, because there is no personal in what a surgeon does or doesn't do.

The nurses nurse, the surgeons operate.

To a surgeon, you are just a procedure. Understand this and you won't get so bent out of shape.

it's not personal, because there is no personal in what a surgeon does or doesn't do.

The nurses nurse, the surgeons operate.

To a surgeon, you are just a procedure. Understand this and you won't get so bent out of shape.

Hissy I do not agree and IME that does a disservice to the many consultants and surgeons I have been treated by who dealt with me with kindness and respect. And their juniors and nursing staff.

I do remember the odd cunt with a God Complex and the odd senior nurse hand-maidens who sway palms at their feet.

Last time I encountered them I asked them to leave. I'm getting on a bit for that kind of shit.

Wherethefuck,

here's to everything good for you.

Yanbu, they should respect a patient ask permission and advise.

Too many people are unaware and accept poor treatment.

Debka: Now YABVU. It's not assault. A complete overreaction! If he's already prodded & examined her, drawing guidelines so he doesn't cut off the wrong breast is totally in his remit. I'd be upset he hadn't! He isn't a surgeon because of his manners.

Surgeons can have manners. I know this because I've met quite a few of them.

They don't cut that bit out of their brain just before they give them their diploma.

I think you'll find that when you're talking about surgeons with poor social skills you're referring to anti-social cunts with a God complex.

I think you're getting a hard time too. Of course it would be respectful to request your permission to draw on you, or at least mention what he is about to do.

Where, I am really sorry about your illness, but with all the respect in the world, it's not relevant to the OPs question.

Said to me as I, a needlephobic, cried buckets as I asked if I really had to endure a large needle being inserted into my breast to identify the location of my cancer prior to surgery:

"If I could do the operation without putting you through this please believe me that I would. My dear, all I want to do is make you better so that you can go home to your children and carry on with the rest of your life".

My eldest child was just six years old.

I was fucking petrified I wouldn't live to see them grow up.

His name was Mr Purushotham and he was wonderful.

I believed him then and I believe it now. Hissy no patient was a mere procedure to that consultant.

When I had an operation they drew on me too, but simply said something like 'ok we're going to mark the area with a pen so there can be no mistake' or something to that effect.

It's just a bit of basic bedside manner ffs, it wouldn't have killed the doctor to say something like that to OP.

She's not saying she minded being drawn upon, she just wanted a bit of respect. Fair enough.

I too think you've had a very hard time on this thread and some people seem to take great pleasure in being nasty (under the guise of expressing sympathy and concern to others who have more serious problems).

No, it's not a massive deal in the great scheme of things, but I can see how you might be taken aback if you weren't expecting it. It shouldn't be a big effort to just mention what you are about to do and why, one sentence could have covered it.
These little things can really matter when we are feeling most vulnerable.

Hey! What's with the OP bashing? She has her feelings and she's entitled to them.

That doesn't mean they're not ridiculous, because they patently are. This man is doing investigations that might potentially save her life - for free, I'd hasten to add - and she's bitching about a bit of marker pen? Ludicrous. Get a grip.

Debka you are seriously ridiculous and nuts! Assault ?

Op it must have been a bit of a surprise that he started marking before telling you what he's doing, but he acted within the scope of the consult with you. He was just doing his job so I think yabu.

Yabvu. Im glad he did. You hate to have wrong part done. Pen washes off.

I think that the issue here is the difference between the surgeon's view and yours as to the inimacy of the area. For you it's a private area that complete strangers would never see, but for the surgeon it's another day in the office and a breast is no different to an arm or a foot.

In all honesty I think you're projecting your stress and anguish over the whole horrible time to this one thing. Let it go, it really doesn't mean anything. Yes it would have been preferable if he'd said he was going to do it but in all reasonableness would you have said no? If he'd been prodding and poking then I suspect he saw the drawing as an extension of that.

I really hope that all the investigations turned up nothing untoward and that you're going to be ok.

On a mostly unrelated note, DD had a minor op on her arm last week, surgeon drew a big smiley face on the arm instead of just marking, dd was delighted and we haven't been allowed to wash it off

Well dognado, respectfully, I would beg to differ. Although I may have ended up imparting more personal info than one might have (got some emotional incontinence going on ATM), that does not detract from the fact that having been in the exact same position as the op, it is perfectly relevant for me to opine that the op was being U. And aside from everything that followed (because the discussion about my illness and surgeon were partially with other posters), I stated that I believed that the op had given her consent to the exam and everything it entailed when she removed her clothes and said "this breast here". I also gave my opinion as to why the surgeon may not have specifically mentioned that he was about to draw, and why this was definitely not, IMHO a violation. Oh, and for the record again I said that the op's feelings were every bit as valid as anyone else's.

So, what part of my experience or opinion were irrelevant to the op's question? I'm not sure I follow