seats on public transport

[sassyandsixty]

OK, I know I'm old-fashioned, but is it unreasonable to expect children to give up seats for older people these days? During half-term, a crowd of children rushed onto the train and grabbed seats that older people were aiming for. They then complained when asked (very politely) to give them up. Parents were around, but didn't even try to get their kids to stand - only gave us the evil eye. What is going on here?

Exactly Kvetch - I would prefer to bring up my children to be kind and caring and notice other people on public transport and be willing to give them a seat if they needed it more than them. They go on to be kind considerate adults who raise kind, considerate children and so it goes on.
Much better than those who have such a sense of entitlement.

sumthucker it's not about showing respect to the individual person, it's about showing respect for an age. You don't have to even like someone to show respect. I had teachers I could not stand, but I showed respect for their position and their role.
I taught my children to show respect for everyone in general but I did not expect them to like everyone or tolerate rudeness or nastiness. I also told them that even when people are rude, we don't know what is going on in their lives that could cause their attitude.

This post seems to me to be the heart of the issue:

"We went to a large event in a city recently, transport was enormously busy. My mother was with us, she is in her 80s and walks with a stick yet on the train heading home two boys, I'm guessing around 10 and 12, who were sitting with a couple who looked to be in their late 50s or early 60s remained sitting while she struggled to hold onto a rail and her walking stick. A middle aged woman near them gave mum her seat and said very loudly and pointedly that she should not be standing as it wasn't safe for her and that she was giving up her seat as the boys hadn't seen fit to and yet they and the adults with them still sat and ignored her.

I do sometimes wonder how society will be in the future when children are brought up with such a lack of consideration for others"

I don't think anyone would disagree with the need for others to give up their seat for your elderly DM, CalmYoBadSelf. But surely the point is, every seated bugger on the train who was able to should have been jumping to their feet and offering their seat to her? If anything, the children are less culpable, not more culpable, because they do not know better. All the adults could reasonably be expected to know better, because irrespective of how they were brought up, they are adults and can be expected to think for themselves. Plus, standing on a very crowded train is clearly a bigger deal for a child than it is for an adult. Handles at wrong height, being swayed around. It's obviously manageable, but it's easier for people in their 20s, 30s and 40s to manage than for 10 or 12 year olds.

So while it's clear that the children ought to have stood up, it's even clearer - at least to me - that the able-bodied adults really really ought to have stood up, and they should be the main targets of your dismay and anger, not the kids.

youareallbonkers I'm a size 6/8 - I don't have enough lap! I would always stand and let them share a seat so no-one loses out! When they're older I will encourage them to stand for those less able, not because the are children but because it's the right thing to do.

Those that feel it's correct that a child should give their seat to someone older (but able bodies and without extra need) than them what she does that 'older' start? People in their 20s, 40s? Also what age does the change over start that a person can expect to be offered seats because they are now in the being older category.

Another question is, if a child is seating and a group of older people get on, there's no more seats, which adult do they select for seat offering?

I get public transport everyday with my children, very rarely get seats, but the times we have (when it's not the morning) they will, as would I, offer their seat to someone elderly, someone with walking aids, or someone who simply looks overloaded. (Without prompting from me) The ordinary person standing who has been on the planet longer than them? Probably not.

I asked my DD, aged 6, this morning who she would stand up for on the tube. Her list:

• "people with cancer or who are very sick"
• "ladies who are pregnant"
• "old people, but not that old lady who was mean and rude to me"
• "toddlers and babies who will sit on their mummies' and daddies' laps, of course"

I think her third point is particularly notable: I don't tolerate rudeness and I don't see why she should have to either - especially when it comes from someone older who is more intimidating and who should know better. My DD has been the butt of old people being nasty to her for some perceived misbehaviour several times. Including standing by a basket in a supermarket talking to her doll, as I'd asked her to, while I went to get something from another aisle, which resulted in an old woman telling her that she should not be playing with a doll in a supermarket as it was unhygienic. That kind of nonsensical rudeness from a few older people has resulted in her being very wary of talking to strangers. And it is always older people. She's never had this attitude from strangers in their 20s, 30s, 40s or 50s, who are always nice if they engage with her.

I remember a quote from a book on this topic, written from the perspective of an older teen: "he had the saintliness old people get when they don't turn sour and self-centred instead". I think that describes the possibilities very well.

I was always told while you pay half fares anyone paying full price has more right to the seats.

KoalaDownUnder
No wonder teachers have such a hard time.

You've clearly misunderstood what I meant. I didn't mean 'if you believe they are undeserving of your respect, don't show them any in return'.
Absolutely respect teachers, people in authority, etc. Just not a 'you've got to respect all adults, because they are adults.

I also told them that even when people are rude, we don't know what is going on in their lives that could cause their attitude.

Me too, Gottakeepmoving.

I asked DD, 10, this morning under what circumstance she would offer a seat on public transport. She replied ''old people, disabled people, pregnant ladies & little kids''. Sounds right to me, but I'd also offer my seat before she did.

it's not about showing respect to the individual person, it's about showing respect for an age.

that's precisely what some of us are saying shouldn't be respected. That doesn't mean we teach our children not to respect adults, only that they don't deserve additional respect merely for being adults.

Teachers are different. That's someone with a set of qualifications in a position of authority with a rather difficult job of managing many children at once. A teacher has to work to gain those qualifications, and yes that should be respected. That position was not attained simply by ageing.

So while it's clear that the children ought to have stood up, it's even clearer - at least to me - that the able-bodied adults really really ought to have stood up, and they should be the main targets of your dismay and anger, not the kids.

precisely. When people say we are raising "entitled" kids, I retort that in fact it's the opposite. What is more entitled than saying someone should stand for me just because my birthday was earlier than theirs? That's entitlement. Teaching kids that they should stand for adults, and that they in turn will receive this benefit for doing nothing other than remaining alive is nothing but entitlement.

Growing up, my parents always taught me to leave sits for older people. Why not, in my youth, I was so energetic, I did not even feel the need to sit. This continued till I had kids, it was so ingrained. Automatically, I would get on last on the bus and let the older people go in first , and I would stand, unless I am going far, even then, I would go sit right at the back, where most elderly etc. don't bother to go. I still do it now when I am alone without the kids.

I have gone on to teach the same to my kids. They only sit if the train is really empty.

As a rule, I get up for elderly, pregnant, with children and carrying loads of luggage, just a matter of convenience really.

Home I can see your point that the children may not have realised that it would be a good thing to stand up for an elderly lady who is unsteady on her feet so, in that case, the rudest of all were the adults with them who did not remind them of that or offer to stand themselves.
I'm shocked at those of you who seem to think that young people should not offer to stand for an older person

Totally shocked at the people on here who think that children should be trained to put their 'entitlements' before common courtesy and respect for older people who have myriad reasons for needing a seat. So what if they inadvertently offer a seat to a sixty year old who swims forty lengths of the pool every morning? The basic principle is that people over a certain age tend to find it harder to stand on public transport than 8+ children and teenagers, so just teach them to do the decent thing.

Oh and I agree that able bodied young adults should jump to their feet if an elderly, pregnant or otherwise incapacitated person is standing. But if this behaviour isn't inculcated into them as children, it will never stick.

So what if they inadvertently offer a seat to a sixty year old who swims forty lengths of the pool every morning?

we are not talking about people who are sixty plus and have trouble standing. if someone looks like they might need a seat (anyone, my criteria is pretty loose), then give them a seat.

we are talking about a 12 year old standing for a 40 year old who is perfectly fit.

Well no, we're not. We're talking about children who race past sixty plus adults to get the last seat.

It the choice was between tolerating that so that children understand they don't have to defer to all adults, or not accepting it even if it means children sometimes thinking they should stand for a 40 year old, I know which option I would choose.

One does kids no harm whatsoever, the other is rude and inconsiderate and shows no understanding of the needs of eldery people.

Well no, we're not. We're talking about children who race past sixty plus adults to get the last seat.

someone thinks this is ok? who?

It the choice was between tolerating that so that children understand they don't have to defer to all adults, or not accepting it even if it means children sometimes thinking they should stand for a 40 year old, I know which option I would choose.

luckily, that's just a false dichotomy.

simple did you actually read the op, because that is the subject of this thread?

And why is it a false dichotomy?

If they pay to travel why shouldnt they sit down. Granted for a pensioner or pregnant lady but not anyone else.

There's just something really wrong about the sight of a 12 year old boy relaxing in a seat while a 50 year old woman stands.

No, I can't explain why but there just is.

I'm 50 sorry id not expect a 12 year old to give me their seat. I'm not disabled. So please don't speak for me. I have working legs I can stand. If someone 40 to 60 can walk without a stick or wheelchair they can stand on public transport.

fine your small child has a seat.
I will not be giving my seat up for any small child.
if they don't have to, why should I.
cos age is just a number

I agree with Susan. There's just something ignorant about a 12 year old hogging a seat and not offering it up to a middle aged woman. Hard not to assume that he is a product of 'entitlement' rather than 'consideration' breed of parents and will grow up to be a thoughtless and self absorbed man.

You should give up a seat for a very small child, for the exact same reason as you give up a seat for an elderly person. They find it harder to stand and are more vulnerable.

I haven't seen anyone on this thread say that children shouldn't stand for those who are less able to stand. Of course they should. And personally, my definition of 'less able to stand' is pretty broad. It includes the elderly, the very young, people with disabilities, pregnant women and anyone who asks for a seat. On a busy tube or bus, I rarely take a seat because I tend to assume someone else will need it more.

But I will not teach my DDs to stand for any adult, just because they are an adult. I don't follow that logic at all.

I disagree Flabulous. I am in my 50s and I would like a 12-year-old to offer their seat to me. I wouldn't necessarily accept it but I think it shows consideration and manners.

Page 1, Worra, fully agree. Wherever I go it's common to see adults telling kids to move from seats so adults can sit. It's something we lack sorely now, it's respect.