seats on public transport

[sassyandsixty]

OK, I know I'm old-fashioned, but is it unreasonable to expect children to give up seats for older people these days? During half-term, a crowd of children rushed onto the train and grabbed seats that older people were aiming for. They then complained when asked (very politely) to give them up. Parents were around, but didn't even try to get their kids to stand - only gave us the evil eye. What is going on here?

[KoalaDownUnder]

YANBU.

On the trains and buses here, there are official signs saying 'Students travelling on half-price tickets must stand for adults'. (Any school-aged child/teenager can get a card for a half-price fare.)

Adults get priority entitlements to seats, when they're available, because it's a perk of paying full fare. Children are welcome to forgo the card, pay full fare and claim the same priority, but none of them do.

Pensioners who are paying half fare are also more entitled to a seat because they're old. They generally get sore and tired from standing more easily than, say, a 14-year-old does. It's not rocket science.

Nobody wants wobbling 4-year-olds in the aisle. But school-aged children who are too big for laps, and teens? Yes, they should stand up for people who are either paying twice the fare they are, or who are old enough to be their grandparents.

Polite parents I know who are trying to instil respect in their children have no problem with this. It's just the way it is. We did it, and the next generation will do it.

I fail to understand why this is so controversial on mumsnet.

[chaletdays]

I totally agree Koala.

When I was a child and teenager standing on a bus didn't bother me at all. Now I get an aching back etc because I'm older, have had major surgery and am just not as fit and agile as I was a couple of decades ago. Most people my age would be in similar situations (maybe not major surgery, but just the general wear and tear of life). Kids need to be brought up to understand this and to just instinctively stand up for middle aged and older women and older/elderly men.
Maybe then they won't turn into the arseholey grown up man who actually raced down the train carriage the other day to grab a seat from someone who was getting off, leaving a pregnant woman beside me who had been standing for ages, still standing for the remainder of the journey.

[Gottagetmoving]

An awful lot of parents nowadays seem to be more interested in teaching children about their rights and entitlements than about consideration and a bit of selflessness.
As a result they're raising self entitled brats who never think of anyone but themselves. Sad really

Exactly!

[Songlark]

I know on buses they always used to have a sign up that said "children should give up their seats while adult passengers are standing"
Maybe it's not politically correct to say this anymore.

[blondegirl73]

I think kids should give their seat up for an adult. I always had to. My 8-year-old is well able to stand. My 5-year-old could too - or sit on a lap if necessary.

Obviously there are times when it's unavoidable but generally I get really annoyed at parents who have been on lovely days out with their kids getting on rush-hour trains. Last week there was a woman with two daughters (about 10ish and 8ish) on my - packed - train. They'd been to see a show and shopping. They got on and the mum several times said very loudly "oh my goodness, isn't it busy? Let's see if we can find you a seat" all the time looking round to see if anyone got up. No one did. She eventually found two seats for her kids and they sat down. She went on and on about how awful it was because it was so busy, while the rest of us thought, 'yes we know. We get this train every day and you're making it busier...'

As a commuter I actively avoid taking my kids on rush-hour trains. It's only on the way home it's a problem so I always think they could just leave half an hour earlier, or go and have a drink and leave a bit later to avoid the really busy trains.

I confess though, that part of my grumpiness about this is sour grapes because I'm always at sodding work and I don't get to go on fun days out with the kids in the school holidays.

[Mehitabel6]

In view of the fact that children are not going to stand I would like them to pay full fare for the seat. I stand for anyone less able to stand- it is common courtesy.

[chaletdays]

A mother loudly expecting passengers to stand up for her 10 and 8 year olds is being absolutely ridiculous. At that age they're capable of holding onto a rail on public transport. She can always put a balancing arm around the 8 year old if the train is swinging around a bend or somesuch. We stood on transport at that age all the time. My mother wouldn't have dreamt of expecting anyone to offer us a seat.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

As a result they're raising self entitled brats who never think of anyone but themselves. The idea that children can be 'brats' while older people are all hard-working, selfless, having-paid-lots-of-tax people pisses me off. I know plenty of wonderful children and teens and plenty of arsehole older people who didn't pay a lot of tax, retired early or didn't work and who act like the world owes them something. Not always, obviously, but sometimes.

Whomever needs the seat more should sit and that could be a child or an adult.

I know that decent people know this. Including the wonderful elderly man who gave me a seat once when I was in school uniform because I wasn't well. Good job he just thought about who was in need, not who was entitled.

[chaletdays]

Of course not all older people are perfect. But that doesn't negate the fact that children should be taught to consider others, to be aware of the fact that the older you get the more easily you tire and might need a hand with carrying stuff, a seat on public transport etc. If you start to develop a kind considerate attitude in children it is more likely to become instinctive behaviour as they grow older - which is why you know lots of nice teenagers and teens.

Unfortunately, however, the number of badly behaved self centred children is on the increase because so many parents just focus on their children being aware of their 'rights' and 'entitlements' but don't teach them that with rights come responsibilities. Ten year old children pushing past sixty something year old women to grab the last seats are rude and badly brought up.

[chaletdays]

Sorry, lots of nice 'children' and teens.

[TeddTess]

i had this recently. we were going from richmond to stratford on the train. there were 4 kids and me. it is an hour journey (end to end). this woman about age 50 got on with a younger woman age 30ish who had a child asleep in a buggy. the older woman stood there huffing and puffing waiting for one of the kids to give the seat up. DD1 was looking at me, i just said "stay where you are". the train was really busy and i needed to keep hold of them close to me. they got off about 2 bloody stops later! no way was dd going to stand for the whole journey.

[Becauseicannes]

balletnotlacrosse An older person who is not able to stand for long periods of time would fall into the category of people to get up for. There are many children who are polite, including some 12 year old boys who insisted on carrying my friends stroller up a flight of stairs at Wimbledon Station. We had politely declined due to the stroller weight (it was a Bugaboo Chameleon!) but they insisted.

[chaletdays]

Because the point I was making was that the older you get the harder it becomes to stand for long periods on public transport. A woman in her fifties would not be unable to stand for a long period, but she would probably find it a lot more exhausting and uncomfortable than a 12 year old child.

[chaletdays]

Sorry, Because, I assumed you were addressing my 16:21 post.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

That's just not the case that older means less able. It is more likely that a 60 year old would find it more tiring than a 16 yo but my DM goes on enormous treks around the word at 70 and is very much more able to stand than most some younger people.

What we should try to do is be empathetic. See who looks worried, uncomfortable or unstable. Do the 'eyebrow waggle, point at seat' thing to people we think might need a seat. Not have blanket rules about who we offer a seat to.

And no one, 10 years old or 70, should push past anyone to sit down before them. That is just rude.

[VivaLeBeaver]

I will always nudge dd to give up her seat for someone who looks more in need of it than her. She gave her seat up twice on the bus and once on the dlr last week. On the dlr I also gave my seat up as someone else with a stick got on after dd was already standing.

[ApeMan]

Where do you draw the line, though?

As a kid I was taught that as a strong healthy male I should give up my seat, passage through doorways and so on to basically every other kind of person, with an order or precedence. Girls were taught the same thing, with what was an obvious modification back then, that men were lower down the pecking order than they.

Doing that now that could be something of a minefield - it's an old-fashioned British behaviour that kind of seems out of place in modern diverse society and there are even people who would take offence. I would not blame others if they did not bother to pass that sort of thing on to their children at all now.

[2rebecca]

Old and frail people yes, healthy middle aged people no. Agree with those who say that most adults have better balance than most young children, plus hand rails on the tube etc can be too high for kids to reach.
I'm better at standing still for 10 minutes than the average 6 year old.

[WeAllHaveWings]

The line is clear.

if you perceive someone to be in need of a little kindness or help give it to them.

if you see a person less able than you standing, offer them your seat, if you see a person (male or female) with a buggy/stick/carrying something and struggling, open the door for them. If you are going through a door yourself hold it open for the person behind you.

Men being expect to hold doors open for a woman just because of her gender, yes is in the past, but the rest I hope doesn't stop getting passed down to our children.

[2rebecca]

The idea that children have less right to a seat than fee paying passengers is laughable as in many areas pensioners get free bus travel. Should they be standing because they didn't pay for their seats too?
Whether or not you paid for your seat is irrelevant to your right to a seat on buses.
Seats are first come first served but no pushing and people who are fit and able to stand should give up their seats to those who find standing difficult. In general this will be frail elderly people and the heavily pregnant. If you have a hidden disability you may have to ask if you need a seat as people aren't psychic.

[m0therofdragons]

My experience of public transport is me standing with luggage and 3 dc (ages 3 and 7) and adults offering my dc their seats. Clearly I didn't come across the mumsnet brigade. From my point if view i was one adult with young dc who had walked across Paris, been in eurostar and then were traveling across London so I kindly accepted the seats. Never expected it but it isn't very safe to stand on a crammed train. Sometimes adults fall over so why is it easy for a young children to stand? Really not something to get so stressed about. In the 1980s the adults with dc always stood while their dc sat ime but apparently my memory is wrong in mumsnet circles.

[Mehitabel6]

I think it is quite simple - anyone gives up a seat if they see someone who can't cope with standing as well as them. I can stand easily and therefore don't need to be given a seat. I think it works generally. My mother, quite clearly, can't stand and has always been given a seat.

[LaLyra]

Mine, apart from my 8 year old (who despite being tall and looking older and therefore getting looks is not having a seizure whilst stood on a moving train for any healthy/able adult), give up their seat in the same way I do. If someone appears to need it more (elderly, disabled, lots of shopping. with small children) then they offer, without prompting.

Children can't win sometimes though. One of my DDs hates offering to give up her seat because one a day out her friend offered a seat to a woman and the woman was really offended because she wasn't old. DS(15) also still remembers the time when he was little, before I met him, that a man shouted at him and called him a rude little boy for saying 'you're welcome' when the man said something as he walked through a door DS held open. Turned out he hadn't said thank you, DS had said you're welcome as his mother drilled manners into him and the man was the first person to say it despite several people walking through. He remembers his mother and an elderly lady telling him that he wasn't rude and giving him a lolly.

The idea of people getting seats based on what they paid is ridiculous. Especially on trains with all the different fare levels depending on when it's booked. When we travel to my sister's should someone who walked up the day before trump the seats I book as far in advance as possible just because they've paid more? I think not.

[angstridden2]

Just back from holiday in a European country; DH using stick at the moment. On every bus we took a young person offered him their seat - boys and girls. Made me feel slightly ashamed - apart from leg problem he doesn't look particularly old (Nobody offered me a seat - I had to stand , can't decide whether to be pleased or not....) I'd like to think that would happen in the UK but not completely convinced.