seats on public transport

[sassyandsixty]

OK, I know I'm old-fashioned, but is it unreasonable to expect children to give up seats for older people these days? During half-term, a crowd of children rushed onto the train and grabbed seats that older people were aiming for. They then complained when asked (very politely) to give them up. Parents were around, but didn't even try to get their kids to stand - only gave us the evil eye. What is going on here?

Yes it is Wadda but if it isn't checked when people are young, they will become the rude adults who remain seated while a pregnant woman hangs onto a rail to hold their balance, who will plonk themselves onto the last available seat ignoring the fact that an elderly woman is also without a seat.
It is often too late to change the attitudes of unpleasant bad mannered grown ups, but there is always time to instill good manners and consideration in young children.

The fact that you don't agree with the explanations simple doesn't mean that 'no one has explained'.

ok. So, you can't list one single item in this long list of good examples?

And your bitterness at the older generation is quite startling.

my tongue-in-cheek post was there to actually do the opposite. I am 40 years old, so neither young nor old. As someone pointed out, not every older person got heaps of privilege put on them. But this young generation is hardly "entitled". They will get little to no state help throughout their lives, and are completely locked out of some basic necessities (housing).

We are all individuals and should be treated as such, and not have to give up privileges based on our group membership. Older people rightly complain ageism is alive and well, and we should all work to stop it. But you can't then insist someone stands for you on the bus simply because of your age. People should be expected to give up their seat not because of some outdated "elders should be respected" (think about how many horrible things have come from that idea) but because they should empathize with someone else's situation when that person has trouble standing.

it was the accepted thing

that is a great example of a bad reason.

your children have noy given anything to the system yet and with yourr atyitude i doubt they ever will.

yeah. no child has given into "the system". that's rather normal for being a child.

Silly You are posting selectively there and ignoring many, many, many other reasons that have been given but even at that, yes, I believe children should be brought up to be kind and considerate and to offer their seat to elderly people on the basis that they are far more likely to be tired or suffering from health problems, bad backs etc than a healthy 12 or 13 year old. It instils a sense of respect and generosity that is sadly lacking in a sizeable minority of young people nowadays.
When I was a child and teenager I stood up all the time for elderly people without assessing whether they looked disabled or unstable on their feet. It cost me nothing because I was young, fit and healthy. I would quite like to see that respect and consideration returned when I'm in my sixties.
But judging my people like you, who practically write a thesis on the matter before judging someone worthy of standing up for, that formerly instinctive act of kindness from young children will soon become a thing of the past.

I see what you mean chalet but equally I think adults can teach by example and making a beeline for a child in a bus full of people may feel unfair to that child. We all have a responsibility to be respectful not just parents and children, I hate the tutting and passive aggressive comment aimed at young people how is that showing respect to your fellow human beings (not you specifically chalet). On a busy bus or train full of people I don't think it's just the children who should be expected to stand there are many other people who could stand, it's rude to single someone out.

Yes it is Wadda but if it isn't checked when people are young, they will become the rude adults who remain seated while a pregnant woman hangs onto a rail to hold their balance, who will plonk themselves onto the last available seat ignoring the fact that an elderly woman is also without a seat.

but that's precisely what the young-should-stand brigade is teaching children: that the criteria for who gets to sit includes something other than need. I (and others), on the other hand, teach our kids that you rise immediately when you see someone with a cane, a pregnant woman, a teen with a cast etc etc. my child knows there are various times she is expected to give up her seat, but the presence of a standing healthy 25 year old is not one of them.

I agree with that keepitsimple0 I don't think a child should be expected to stand purely because they are younger, that is unfair. We should be teaching our children compassion for those who's need is greater than ours and personally I lead by example. I am more able to stand on public transport than a child so I would rather stand for someone who needs it than let a child give up their seat.

yes, I believe children should be brought up to be kind and considerate and to offer their seat to elderly people on the basis that they are far more likely to be tired or suffering from health problems,

the question isn't the elderly. Simply based on the chances, an 80 year old is more likely have health problems, so fine. But people are insisting that a 10 year old stands for me, a perfectly able bodied 40 year old. that's ridiculous. That's not being considerate or courteous, that's giving deference to age, and I openly tell my children not to do that. I don't think older people deserve any additional respect that others are not due. People aren't right or worthy because of their age.

i wonder
do you feel the same about teens and young adults?
do you think they should give up seats?

I don't particularly feel children should be obliged to stand for a 40 year old simple. But actively and openly telling your children not to is a bit unpleasant in my view.

Yes, Mehitabel, I know MNHQ reiterated the general line about reporting any offensive posts, including those that are ageist or sexist (or, for the "horrible old trout" posts, a blend of both) but I was speculating about whether, after the intial flurry, people have continued to do it. I hope so.

In all this discussion, I assume that "older" is used in the modern, slightly euphemistic sense of "retired" (or the even more outmoded "OAP"). I certainly wouldn't expect a child automatically to stand up for a 40 year old who wasn't obviously disabled or pregnant but, imperfect as it is, it seems a reasonable working rule that people of retirement age are more likely to have health problems or disabilities than children (caveat again: who are able to stand safely) and so might have a greater objective need for the seat.

That's not being considerate or courteous, that's giving deference to age, and I openly tell my children not to do that. I don't think older people deserve any additional respect that others are not due. People aren't right or worthy because of their age

Can you come back in twenty or thirty years time & tell us whether you still agree with your younger self?

I teach university students. I find that increasingly they are self-centred and entitled, and lack basic respect: not for my great age, but for the knowledge, experience, and wisdom that I have as a consequence of having lived, worked & thought for 35 years longer than them.

And re the OP yes, I think able-bodied older children & teens should give up seats for older adults.The scenario described in the OP

a crowd of children rushed onto the train and grabbed seats that older people were aiming for

is rude behaviour, and an example of where we're at with entitled self-absorbed children, encouraged by parents insistent on their 'rights' but forgetting the responsibilities that go with rights.

do you feel the same about teens and young adults?

is that directed at me? No, they shouldn't. I am saying nobody should be giving their seats solely based on age. I don't expect a 15 year old to stand for me. I have, occasionally, been offered a seat and always refuse.

I don't particularly feel children should be obliged to stand for a 40 year old simple.

well, we agree then.

But actively and openly telling your children not to is a bit unpleasant in my view.

I don't tell my child specifically not to give their seat to a 40 year old. I was referring to deference based on age in general.

I teach university students. I find that increasingly they are self-centred and entitled, and lack basic respect: not for my great age, but for the knowledge, experience, and wisdom that I have as a consequence of having lived, worked & thought for 35 years longer than them.

so you want them to listen to you because you are an authority, or because your ideas have merit? Having thought about something for 35 years doesn't make your ideas on that topic correct.

I am already at the age where it is acceptable for me to pull age rank, and I don't. So, you don't have to worry about what will happen in 30 years.

I very rarely use public transport but when I do, I wouldn't expect an able bodied adult to ask for the seat my child is sitting in. Obviously I would offer immediately if the adult was pregnant, elderly or disabled and they wouldn't have the chance to ask as I'd have already stood up

If they are capable of standing though, then why on earth should they be more deserving of a seat? No matter the age of the child. If I witnessed this situation, I would find the able bodied adult far more disrespectful in asking for a seat than a youngster refusing to move

I hate that puerile MN thing of quoting people's words back at them, so won't do it, but it seems to me, keepitsimple, that you're setting up a false distinction between being an authority and having ideas with merit. They're not mutually exclusive and it is having ideas with merit - even if they're not universally accepted - that makes someone an authority. There's room for plurality of opinion, but people with crackpot ideas don't get to be authorities. None of the successful, acclaimed academics I know would hold on to ideas for anywhere near 35 years if they didn't have some evidence or support to sustain those ideas; the whole point of academic endeavour is to promote knowledge and, conversely, to jettison ideas and theories that don't stack up.

It's very Jeremy Paxman the whole bolding bits back at people.

And rather aggressive I find.

They're not mutually exclusive and it is having ideas with merit - even if they're not universally accepted - that makes someone an authority. There's room for plurality of opinion, but people with crackpot ideas don't get to be authorities. None of the successful, acclaimed academics I know would hold on to ideas for anywhere near 35 years if they didn't have some evidence or support to sustain those ideas; the whole point of academic endeavour is to promote knowledge and, conversely, to jettison ideas and theories that don't stack up.

I never said they are mutually exclusive - they are obviously not. In that post, the poster said that students "nowadays" (how old is this complaint?), didn't have respect for, essentially, authority. But anyone who has held onto ideas for 35 years or longer who has support for those ideas should be able to clearly explain them and not rely on "experience" or "wisdom" (his/her words, not mine) to have those ideas accepted.

If that poster was referring to unruly behaviour in the class, I don't at all defend that, of course. I clearly made a distinction earlier between courtesy and deference.

And rather aggressive I find.

I thought that was the culture here. It's not meant as aggression (at least in my case it's not). it's a convenient way to make clear what you are responding to.

I agree with keepit; bolding bits of people's posts makes it clear what the ongoing discussion is about. I don't think it's aggressive.

I thought that was the culture here Being aggressive towards other posters?

Yes, sadly, in recent years a lot of people think that.

I'm with you on this one, DrankSangria.

Being aggressive towards other posters?

As I said, it's not meant as aggression (in my case). I have seen this being done in a million threads, and this is the first time I have heard it being referred to as aggressive behaviour.

But actively and openly telling your children not to is a bit unpleasant in my view.

If that was based on my earlier comment, the woman was being a complete cheeky cow. there were a group of teenagers further up the train but no she didn't dare try and bully one of them out of their seats. DD didn't know what to do. i didn't want her to lose her seat, we were going to be on the train for another 40 minutes in the rush hour!! we were all tired after a day at the olympic park.

Sorry Tedd it was in response to Simple's post, not your's.

yanbu. I wouldn't make my kids move seats or squash up unless the other person was elderly/disabled/pregnant etc. ive paid for the kids seats so why should they give the seat up unless really needed. I sometimes make them sit 3 to a seat though rather than 2 if it's at a busier time of day.