AIBU to “insist” on communicating with my wife?

[TheOtherSide]

Times are stressful at the moment. Sprog 1, 3.5yo & sprog 2 1yo. My wife & I are always arguing. Any topic is fair game from what to watch on TV through to Money, shopping, weather etc etc.

My Wife has found a new coping strategy – its called “Just ignore him”, state your feelings & walk away. Instead of arguing, ignore him and spend your time productively browsing the web or playing computer games. This irritates me, resolves nothing and has been going on for months.

We have blazing rows and either....

1. I follow her around the house and attempt to communicate – I'm then accused of being a stalker.

1. We ignore & avoid each other – about a week later she pretends that everything is ok and nothing happened.

I'm working away from home during the week for the next couple of months. I got home on Thursday night about 9pm and tried to engage her in non controversial casual conversation, e.g. check out this funny clip of a toddler on FB. She tried to ignore me and then had a massive go at me for wasting her time and went to bed.

I have suggested “Marriage Guidance” but this was poo poohed as she felt that last time the councillor sided with me. I arranged a course of sessions with a different organisation, and hence different counsellor, but she still refused to go. She then suggested that I attend on my own.

Key points...

a. I can't see how the marriage is going to survive/progress if we can't communicate.
b. If we didn't have kids then i'd gladly walk/run right now but we do so I will not.
c. I/we need to find a way forward

...any ideas?

Thanks.

Yes, I agree, it's quite an annoying trend Sunsets

DH and I are in a similar-ish situation in terms of I'm at home with 2 young kids and he works long hours, often including weekends. You can judge whether my advice fits your situation.

It sounds like you come home from work needing to reconnect with your family, debrief/bitch about work, wind down and share some time with your wife- essentially you want your share of her undivided attention, which is not unreasonable, it's a good thing. However, she has spent every waking moment and probably some overnight, including loo trips, giving her undivided attention to your DCs- sometimes it actually feels like you can't hear the thoughts in your own head- and she hasn't got anything left to give you. You've become another child craving attention when she's desperate for some space. You're even following her round the house like a child! Sounds like she's given up on you meeting her emotional needs and is just running away from the pressure you add. And all the while she's probably feeling guilty about it. She's probably afraid of the counselling in case it makes her feel like a failure for not keeping all her plates spinning.

As for a solution, it's not a quick fix, because it's just the situation you're in (which, by the way, gets easier the older the kids get- school, nursery, etc). When you come home, there are two exhausted adults desperate to have their very valid emotional needs met but only a tiny window of opportunity in which to do it. Instead of demanding she meet yours, try meeting hers first (I don't mean once, I mean regularly) and hopefully she'll reciprocate naturally. Ask how you can help, how her day was, compliment her instead of moaning, acknowledge the huge responsibility she has in raising your kids all day, etc. I'm not saying her needs are more important than yours or vice versa, but one of you has to go first or the stalemate will continue. Good luck.

Hang on, has she been diagnosed with depression? Can't find a post from the OP confirming but others seem to reference it. Depression is an illness which needs medical treatment, not an MN thread.

Raines, she's on anti-depressants so I'd say that indicates a diagnosis, though I do realise that those pills can be used to treat other things too.

"Yes she has seen a Dr and has received a prescription for anti-deprecients, as well as a course of counselling."

There you go Raines.

^This is why you get abusive pricks like this man thinking that he has the right to force his wife to obey him - to the extent of being willing to fake a laugh at some stupid viral video just because he wants her to engage with him, despite the fact that she is exhausted and unwell.
The MN culture of believing women and prioritizing them and their needs may not be perfect, but while everyone everywhere else still insists that men come first, MN is an essential resource.^

Another SGB classic comment worth remembering....

OP - If I were married to you, (which I wouldn't be in the first place), I'd pray to the powers that be that you'd find the exact person it is that you're looking for - clearly NOT your wife - and leave with her. Pack your things and go.

Your poor wife is clearly in need of some 'me' time.... some time when she can feel like a real woman. A real woman again, not a machine, a person who can be herself.

You make me feel ill thinking that there are still men like you out there... I was hoping that mine was the last ever.... clearly not.

She is a person, a woman, not your belonging.

You need help, she needs support god bless her.

OP's wife might find her depression easing if this twit packed and left.

Jesus. Some of this is vile.
I was that woman with depression. I've also been a partner to someone with depression. You know it's ALSO bloody hard being with a partner who is totally unresponsive and lost in dark thoughts. There's a real person reading this and some of these posts are just horrendous, while calling abuse!

And you know it's not at all uncommon for people caring for someone with depression to feel hostility, ambivalence and resentment towards them. That's not related to whether you're a man or a woman. It is an awful experience, it's a family illness and it often provokes very serious interpersonal difficulties - try living with someone who won't communicate with you, is angry with you, rolls their eyes at you, flies into a rage if you move the salt because it's demonstrating you don't understand their pain. It is absolutely wearing and very hard to like someone who is deeply depressed. And that's part of the vicious cycle of depression. You feel like you are worthless, useless, broken, nothing and so you act from that place by lashing out or being endlessly flowingly miserable and to be honest with you, being that person and/or living with that person is soul-draining. It is SUCH a tough illness, and all this "oh it's just like a broken leg" crap really irritates the shit out of me, it's not. It can feel deeply personal and carers of people with depression very often end up depressed themselves. It's so destructive. I have lots of empathy for both sides.

When our kids were 1yo and 3yo it was absolutely the worst low/crisis our marriage suffered. Dh walked out briefly. I personally think that whatever the issues are (unless it's abuse), splitting when dc are that age is not the right thing to do. You need to wait at least 2 years and see if you can improve things then. When I see little kids of that age, I just think what bloody exhausting thankless work that stage was.

Don't think op will be back.

Agree he is long gone though I hope he comes back and reads and digests the comments.

He did say he deliberately came to MN to hear our pov's on his issues.

Yes I hope so too as there's been a lot of sensible comments.

Pretty appalled at some of the comments here, particularly as if you read other threads related to depression it show that there is a serious double standard in how partners of those with depression are expected/advised to behave:

Woman with depression- needs support, understanding and help from DP, regardless of behaviour

Man with depression - not worth the hassle; ditch him.

I don't know. On most threads ivs seen, if a man isn't willing to get help for depression, it can be seen as futile/one sided.

But in this case you've got a woman who has accessed help, but whose husband doesn't seem to see a link between diagnosed depression, her behaviour and his interaction and impact.

I don't think you can extrapolate from people sharing negative or ambivalent thoughts about a depressed partner online what this looks like in real life or whether they care or make links between behaviour and illness etc. To an extent it can be a self protective thing as it is so scary and painful. If he was saying all this that would be problematic, but it's not fair to ask people not to think negatively about depressed behaviour. We don't and can't control our thoughts and it is far kinder to express them anonymously somewhere and not to the person. The only thing is online isn't a safe place to do that as you can be devastatingly shamed and judged for having these thoughts, which are normal and understandable when under extreme stress.

And you know what depression does make people act appallingly and abusively sometimes. Saying you should only think shiny happy thoughts about abusive treatment because the person can't help it doesn't wash and only strengthens a cycle of dysfunction.

OP - I've lived with someone with depression for many years now. In his darkest patches and on the way down to the dark patches he's a nightmare to live with. He works so hard to control his reactions at work that when he gets home he has very little control left. It is exhausting being him. His tolerance for stress, his ability to switch off, his management of his emotions is all screwed up. He gets snappy, distracted, loses focus or gains obsessions (like his bastard iPhone and bloody Quora), his eating and sleeping patterns become a mess. He is ill and needs medicine, rest, recuperation and support.

So that's him and I love him. I've chosen to have children with him and he's an excellent husband and father WHO IS ILL some of the time. I have learned to notice his triggers. I think he's sliding at the moment. After several months of house renovations, health problems for me, crises and bereavements in our wider family it's not unexpected. He hasn't noticed yet. When he does he'll be shit-scared.

On my side I am lucky not to have depression. I will never really know what it's like in his head, when you can't trust your senses and are barely holding it together. I will always be in a state of some alert about his health and know that's part of our marriage.

However the most important things we have are his self-awareness (good), his acceptance of help (medical, talking and crisis - all good) and his acceptance that I will challenge him to seek help and to manage his behaviour, we are a team. Some of his worst traits when ill could easily become status quo for him if I don't challenge.

But all of that was my choice. I knew who he was at 20 when we got together and it's been bloody hard but also rewarding.

Depression and living with depression can test the very strongest of relationships. Get help for yourself and equip yourself to help your wife. There's a great book (if rather American) called "How to Cope when they're Depressed" which I found really useful. And find a safe space - a forum, a person to talk to, a diary - for yourself

CarrotVan

"However the most important things we have are his self-awareness (good), his acceptance of help (medical, talking and crisis - all good) and his acceptance that I will challenge him to seek help and to manage his behaviour, we are a team. Some of his worst traits when ill could easily become status quo for him if I don't challenge."

I would disagree - from the sound of your post it sounds like the most important thing he has is you.

duplodon

I would expand on what you have said to say that, just as everybody's manifestation of their depression will be individual, so everybody's reaction to that depression will be individual. It is bewildering, frustrating and scary, and it can be something that you have to check out of for your own good.

Thanks JoshL - we are a good team but it's been fought for hard.

duplodon one of the things that really helped MrVan was me talking about the impact on me. Partly it made him feel less alone, and partly it made him more resolved to seek and maintain help - but you have to do it carefully. He has always encouraged me to have my own outlets for coping with his illness although as a massive introvert mostly I just need space.

What I'm finding mildly amusing is that we are all carrying on the conversation and the OP seems to have -Elvis like- left the building. I'm taking my sage advice and offensive posts about spag Bol elsewhere. .

Some good insights on depression though, thanks peeps.

Only skimmed the thread, so not really in a position to comment, although smells like a drip feed.

Had to lol at the "MN is the only place on the Internet where women are prioritised over men" post above!

What are you on about? is Amazon not safe? What about eBay? facebook which has 65% female membership.

Oh and that awful Pinterest with its 80% female user base. They can't help but stamp the female down can they....

Congratulations, you've just taken number one spot for daftest sentence I ever read on here and there was some hot competition

Do lots of people go on amazon to discuss their relationships? Career advice on eBay? Politics on Pinterest?

Would it not be safe to say the comment related to non selling sites?

You could post your relationship issues on eBay though. A woman seeking used pants said she is happy to write and tell you what she was doing when she wore them. That's kind of relationships but with a bit of selling,

My mother does the "ignore it" strategy - and it tore their marriage apart. She would not engage in anythign except small talk. Nothing difficult could ever be discussed.
She was like that with me - we ended up just chatting. She now has dementia and I care for her but it is hollow and I have always felt irrelevant.

I understand that it is in fact a form of abusive/ controlling behaviour. You have to be able to talk. You have to be able to argue sometimes too. It can't always be "Oh Darling what shall we have for dinner?"

You have had some good advice here.

I would say that if you really love her then go to marriage guidance on your own. see what the counsellor suggests. Ask her what she wants. If she does not want to make the effort the there will be no way back from this and it will go on for years.

If she will not communicate then leave - in spite of the kids. (Concentrate on being the best dad you can even if they do not live with you).

Hi everyone,

First off, sorry for the absence, Elvis has not left the party, LOL, he's just been quite busy with work, DIY etc.

I'm blown away with the number of responses this thread has received. Unfortunately I physically don't have the time to respond to each so in summary...
... I've clearly under estimated the depression. I've asked her about it, how it's going with counselling etc but she doesn't really talk about it. In fact when I posted the thread it never occurred to me that this might be the problem. She hides it really well then snaps. Maybe she sees it as a weakness? To be fair, I don't question her direction, I.e. She usually has a good point but it's the magnitude of the hostility and the way she avoids discussion/argument that I have trouble understanding. You can't just throw your toys in the corner. Possibly if she can't cope then she just shuts down? In this particular instance, I thoght she was just obsessing about work again. Someone asked me to set the scene - it's 9.30pm. I've got home from work after a 3 hour drive and I started at 7.30am, she's in the lounge on her lap top working from home unpaid. The conversation is in half sentences/grunts, I get bollocked for stinking the house out with a kebab... Anyway yes the video was a FB funny but it showed how a baby escaped his cot - this is particularly relevant as our son escaped his high chair last week and my wife found him on the kitchen table. We have a stone floor.
Thank you for all your advice and direction. I realise now that I need some specialist help. You have been very useful engines, thank you, xx

For all the "man haters" out there, I'm sorry you feel so strongly. Life has clearly been unkind and I wish you a happier path in the future.

Kind regards,
The Otherside