AIBU to “insist” on communicating with my wife?

[TheOtherSide]

Times are stressful at the moment. Sprog 1, 3.5yo & sprog 2 1yo. My wife & I are always arguing. Any topic is fair game from what to watch on TV through to Money, shopping, weather etc etc.

My Wife has found a new coping strategy – its called “Just ignore him”, state your feelings & walk away. Instead of arguing, ignore him and spend your time productively browsing the web or playing computer games. This irritates me, resolves nothing and has been going on for months.

We have blazing rows and either....

1. I follow her around the house and attempt to communicate – I'm then accused of being a stalker.
   

1. We ignore & avoid each other – about a week later she pretends that everything is ok and nothing happened.
   

I'm working away from home during the week for the next couple of months. I got home on Thursday night about 9pm and tried to engage her in non controversial casual conversation, e.g. check out this funny clip of a toddler on FB. She tried to ignore me and then had a massive go at me for wasting her time and went to bed.

I have suggested “Marriage Guidance” but this was poo poohed as she felt that last time the councillor sided with me. I arranged a course of sessions with a different organisation, and hence different counsellor, but she still refused to go. She then suggested that I attend on my own.

Key points...

a. I can't see how the marriage is going to survive/progress if we can't communicate.
b. If we didn't have kids then i'd gladly walk/run right now but we do so I will not.
c. I/we need to find a way forward

...any ideas?

Thanks.

[Pastaeater]

Brilliant post Cinderling.

[2rebecca]

We called the kids sprogs when they were young, it's a commonly used term in Scotland. Picking on that is petty. If some posters don't like the term they don't have to use it, you don't get to control what other people call their sprogs though. That is being a controlling idiot.
I wouldn't be happy with my husband following me round the house trying to pick a fight. It doesn't help resolve anything.
I also wouldn't be happy with him bringing take away food for himself only in to the house especially if it was strong smelling unless it had been agreed in advance.
I hate viral funnies, particularly if someone is using the viral "funny" as a way to have a go at my parenting skills.
You don't sound as though you like each other at the moment. That is the main thing that needs tackling.
I would try only making supportive comments for a while and biting your tongue when you start wanting to argue. If it's just about the TV or weather then let it go. Obviously this isn't a long term tactic but it may help to just stop disagreeing with her for a few weeks and try being helpful and doing more with the kids to try and defuse things and improve the bond between you. Try seeing her as a likeable woman you want to live with and see if supporting her helps her depression.
If you can't start liking and supporting each other again the relationship is over.

[MrsToddsShortcut]

Cinderling, you expressed that beautifully. Thank you

[Cinderling]

I don't quite know how to express this but I'll try. It is impossible to underestimate the effects of lack of sleep, depression and the sheer relentless drudgery of the early years. I was seething with resentment and frustration that I was too bloody exhausted to analyze or express. I was too tired to argue, or talk through things and I used to fantasize (really fantasize) about walking up naturally in crisp clean sheets in a hotel room. I used to fantasize about walking out, even just for one night, and not telling anyone where I was going, so that I could just pretend for a few hours that none of them existed. I never did, but at times when I had two under three, I felt sub-human. I couldn't think straight from the sleep deprivation, I had insidious low-level depression and cleaning the same square metre of floor under the high chair five times a day was soul destroying.
If I'm honest, one of the reasons I haven't had another baby is that I can't face losing the lovely relationship I have with my DH now. Two kids in, I've realized that we won't be in a good place with each other for the first 18 months at least. I thought we had it figured out after the first, and then the second baby came along and we were back to barely tolerating each other.
For me, and I'm only speaking for myself and certainly not trying to generalize for all women, I felt as if I hardly existed or mattered as I devoted myself to caring for my children. Their needs came, as they should, first, but there was no energy left for mine. I desperately wanted someone to notice me, to see me, and to mother me a bit. If I could go back and influence my Dh back then I'd suggest:
1 Prioritise my sleep - if you have a chance to let me sleep then do so, let me have a lie in whenever you can. If you are up at night with the baby do it in a way that actually lets her sleep. And don't assume because I've got one night's sleep that I'm fixed. Often a night's sleep nearly unhinged me because it was as if my body said "oh, we're sleeping again are we? Great, now you owe me 429 hours NOW"
2 Don't huff and puff about the state of the house. If it bothers you pitch in and don't huff and puff while you do.
3 When you've been away from the kids all day they can be wonderful to come home to; equally when you've been with them all day it can be wonderful to get away from them for a few minutes. One of my greatest pleasures was to cook a meal uninterrupted while DH kept the kids busy.
4 Help out more. My impression was that DH helped about 50% of the time with the older child (and I'm being generous) while I was left with 100% of the new baby and 50% of the older one. Oh and he thought he deserved a medal for the bit he did (this was my impression, probably not reality)
5 If you are taking care of the kids, do what I ask, in the way I ask even if you think it's stupid or anal or you know best. It's much easier to relax and take a break if I know that what I've asked will be done; I know that my kids are safe with you. Conversely, don't expect instructions for every little thing. Sometimes I couldn't delegate because I just didn't have the energy or brain power to spare to tell him what I needed him to do and it seemed easier to do it myself.
6 Cut me some slack. When I'm exhausted I'm a bit of a witch, This isn't about you, it's about me. Suck it up, let it go.

These are not about you and your wife; but I'm being as honest as I can about my situation with my DH. We got through it, but it wasn't easy. I'm very glad we did.

To answer your original post, you both NEED to communicate in order to have a relationship but I think you are mistaken in how you define communication. Talking is only one part of that. Doing practical helpful things is also a form of communication. Sitting quietly together is another. (Google the 5 languages of love and you'll get the drift). If you are serious about saving this relationship, and for the sake of your children I think you are, then you need to shift out of the adversarial mindset that you are in and start figuring out how to PROTECT and CHERISH your wife.

[MrsToddsShortcut]

I'm not sure anyone has actually said that? I think what people are taking issue with, is the way he has described his wife, which is entirely valid as it hasn't been very nice.

However, if someone I loved and the father of my children was acting in a way that I found extremely difficult to live with and they were subsequently diagnosed with depression, I wouldn't ignore it. I'd be asking friends & family, googling, reading and generally trying to do everything I could to find out about it so that I could help him and all of us through it.

I wouldn't wait till several weeks/months later then casually drop it into the middle of an Internet thread during which I'd already opined that he should get his head out of his arse and sort himself out. Because I would already be aware that he wouldn't be able to.

If the OP really wants to support his family he needs to stop trying to work around the depression and pretend it's not the problem and address it head on.

It might be statistically the case that men communicate less well or reach out less or research less around this stuff, but that doesn't make it okay that it's so.

[Gabilan]

"repeatedly posting that someone is a shit and no wonder his wife has depression having to live with him, needs a counsellor just to exist alongside him, really does nothing for anyone in the world anywhere. It is pointless, unpleasant and unkind."

Agreed, duplodon. It isn't helpful.

I'm not suggesting seeking support, although this thread is sort of doing that. I'm talking about finding information. And that might not be specifically about anger but would IMO have helped explain his wife's retreating and her unwillingness to communicate in some situations.

[duplodon]

Why would he think it? Before I had depression, I never once thought it would make you ANGRY. I had no clue. It's one of the more unpalatable aspects of depression and actually isn't spoken about that frequently in first person accounts. Most stuff on depression on the Internet is so busy telling you how it's like a broken leg in an effort to destigmatise it that it would be perfectly easy not to even recognise it as a symptom.

There's also a) lot of research that suggests men don't tend to seek support on the Internet that way as regularly as women and b) that their discourse style tends to be broadly less personal, at least in our current social context.

In any case, repeatedly posting that someone is a shit and no wonder his wife has depression having to live with him, needs a counsellor just to exist alongside him, really does nothing for anyone in the world anywhere. It is pointless, unpleasant and unkind.

[Gabilan]

"Not once has he come on here and said "my wife is ill with depression, I can't cope, shd can't cope, what can I do to support her, my kids and myself through this"."

Yes. I have depression, I don't doubt that I'd be difficult to live with. But we have one of the most amazing research tools available to us. The internet is not just for looking at kittens and arguing about loo brushes. It's not that difficult to find first-hand accounts of just how difficult it is to deal with depression and how important it is that people take it seriously. I'm glad that in his last post the OP said he needs to consider his wife's depression more.

[MrsToddsShortcut]

But why

[duplodon]

I think there are few people who have lived with a loved one with depression who are aggressive to them who haven't thought something like that at some point, even fleetingly. I see no disregard, only confusion and feeling lost. It really can be hugely difficult to understand and most people don't have good information or education around the fact that depression can cause irritability and aggression, but assume it is all about sitting sobbing or staring into space with your head in your hands. I would imagine as OP said, he hasn't been thinking this is depression-related brhaviour.

[MrsToddsShortcut]

I think suggesting that your wife, who you are already aware is suffering from depression, 'gets her head out of her arse and sorts herself out' denotes a casual disregard, yes.

[OrangeVase]

By the way, another langauge point. The OP got attacked for using the word "sprogs" to describe his children. I have heard it used a lot amongst my age group (50s) and it is light and affectionate much in the way "kids" is used.

Saw it used in a post today - light tone - no-one commented.

[duplodon]

Where is the casual disregard? I read it as 'I really don't understand this'. As someone who has had depression, I'd say most people who haven't had it don't get it.

There is a lot of hating going on in the thread. It's very unnecessary.

[Inkanta]

Gablian - agree with you about the extrovert/introvert aspect.

[OrangeVase]

Thanks for coming back OP.
The useful engines comment was, I think, as pp suggested, a Thomas the Tank Engine reference. We used to use it with our two who were both train-obsessed, (especially DD in fact). It was nice. Why automatically dismiss it as being rude?

The "man-haters" was in speech marks - therefore a quote from pp who had discussed the issue of "man-haters". OP didn't say we were"man-haters".

The OP was out of his home from 7.30 am until 9pm. He didn't come in and expect his wife to cook. (Where did the "domestic appliance" accusation come from?) He sorted his own dinner but he dared to smell when he walked in.

If I had worked a 14 hour day and walked in to my home to be told that I smelt bad I would be furious. PP suggested he sit in the kitchen to eat. How would you feel if you came home, or downstairs from a difficult session with the kids, to be told to eat in the kitchen because you smelt?? (I know his wife didn't tell him that)

The FB video was misjudged I agree, (although I can see you meant it as a solidarity thing). But really - when you are walking on eggshells like that and you walk in and you are not welcome whatever you say is wrong.

You have had some good advice on here, along woth some harsh criticism, but none of us knows the full story. Your wife could be abusive - or you could. It could be the end of a relationship or just a rough patch - we don't know.

However it goes - good luck OP - to all of you.

[Gabilan]

I've not read all of this thread so I apologise if this has been said but it strikes me that part of the issue is that TheOtherSide is communicating like an extrovert whereas his DW is more introverted. (I think there's a lot else going on, especially with her depression and I don't exactly warm to the OP but this difference struck me the most).

By introverted I don't mean shy - there is quite a difference. I'm an introvert but can be very sociable. It's just that to recharge my batteries I need to be on my own or with another introvert I know well. In contrast extroverts need to be around other people to recharge their batteries.

If you're an introvert, being around a demanding extrovert is exhausting. If you have depression you have little energy anyway. But if all you want is a bit of down time then being followed by someone who seems to need your energy for themselves feels as if you're being attacked by a parasite who wants to sap you of all your resources. All you want to do is get away from them so you can feel better before you face people and the world again.

OP you continually seem to invade your DW's personal space. Having small children she's already exhausted and probably fed up with not being able to go to the loo alone. Then you're continually getting into her space demanding attention and you've even followed her here to her safe virtual world. I can imagine smelly food being the last straw. The trouble with invasive smells is that even when the extrovert has left the room, they are still managing to get up your nose.

This might help to explain how to communicate with an introvert twentytwowords.com/a-simple-explanation-of-how-to-interact-with-introverts/ At the moment, you move into her space and she backs away. Stop doing that, it isn't going to work. Allow her her space but make the space around you inviting. Then if she wants to approach you she will. She may not actually be an introvert but it does seem that at the moment, she needs you to respect her boundaries.

[MrsToddsShortcut]

I really want to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but the casual disregard with which you refer to your wife and her depression make it difficult.

If you are genuine, and you want to support your wife, then look at the links posted above, change your attitude, educate yourself and do what you can your help and support your wife and children.

But honestly, I think you need to do some self reflection here about what you've posted and the way you are coming across. Which frankly, is in the manner of a man who isn't married to his wife/partner/equal. You come across as someone who has found a replacement Mummy and expects her to look after you and your home and support you and your children. Now she has the temerity to become ill and needs something from you (and as we all know, Mummies don't get ill) and you are very very angry and very very resentful.

I really hope I am wrong.

[BabyMurloc]

OP - I have been on both sides of the depression spectrum. I have lived with it and with someone who has it. BOTH sides are very hard in different ways. Ignore EVERYTHING else for a moment and ask yourself this simple question:

"Do I still love my wife?"

If the answer is YES then the best advice I can give you is to read some of these websites. They give a lot of useful tips for helping get through the dark times. You can get through this and so can she but she WILL need your help and you WILL need to adjust some of the things you do. At the moment you may be making things worse without even realising it. I wouldn't have taken kindly to being followed after I had walked away from an argument when I had PND.

These websites all offer good advice which has worked for me and many others I know. have a read, educate yourself and go help your wife.

www.mind.org.uk/information-support/types-of-mental-health-problems/depression/how-can-friends-and-family-help/#.VW70pUbH2M8

www.time-to-change.org.uk/category/blog/depression

psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2012/05/08/9-best-ways-to-support-someone-with-depression/

You can get through this but it will require YOU to do some research about her illness and how you can help. If she is having councelling and is on medication she will learn coping strategies as well but you BOTH need to work on this TOGETHER to beat it.

If you want to you can get through this together. I hope you do.

[ReluctantCamper]

apocalypse, I was going to say that. I have seen astonishing aggression towards female posters in AIBU. It's an equal opportunity blood bath.

[ReluctantCamper]

The thing is OP, you have three choices

1. stick with the way things are. Doesn't look like fun
   
2. get divorced
   
3. change your behaviour, because you can't force your wife (or anyone else) to change theirs
   
   So when you get home with a kebab and get grief from your wife, you have two potential responses:
   
   
4. god, I'm so tired, I've been working all week, why are you being so aggressive, just talk to me and so on and so on
   
   
5. I'm sorry love, it is a bit smelly. I'll eat it in the kitchen and put all the wrappers in the bin when I'm done. Hopefully the smell will go. I'm making a cup of tea, would you like one?
   
   When you pick your response, remember your wife is ill.
   
   Not great invading her head space by coming on here by the way.

[ApocalypseThen]

some which you WOULDNT have got had you been female.

Except that he chose to post in AIBU, where nobody gets to have an uninterrupted pity party, male or female, and the whole point is that people pick your words apart to find out exactly where you are being unreasonable.

[FuckYouChrisAndThatHorse]

MrBuster, I couldn't agree more.

[MrBusterIPresume]

So let me get this straight from your scene-setting, OP:

Your wife is sufficiently busy at work that she has to work at home in the evenings to catch up. (Does she have to leave work at a fixed time to collect DCs from childcare, regardless of whether her work is finished or not?) You arrive home late in the evening, meal in hand. (Had your wife eaten already or was she waiting to eat with you? Had she spent time earlier preparing a meal for you?) From your POV your wife's work isn't catch-up, it's unpaid overtime, so it has no value in your eyes and it is perfectly reasonable to interrupt her with your need to "communicate". Except that you're not communicating, you're having a passive-aggressive dig at what you perceive to be her failure to adequately safeguard your children. And she won't play your game and rise to the bait.

To all the posters thinking that the OP is getting a raw deal simply because he is a man:

If a female OP had written such dismissive, disparaging, contemptuous posts about her spouse, my reaction would be the same. If a female OP had deliberately sought the views of a particular audience, but then felt the need to patronise them by setting out the "key points" in her OP, rather than crediting her audience with the intelligence to work those out for themselves, my reaction would be the same.

The OP isn't getting stick because he has a Y chromosome. He is getting stick because the way he has chosen to write his posts portrays him as self-centred, entitled and arrogant.

To the OP:

Do you actually care that your wife, a human being, seems to be desperately unhappy? Because from where I'm sitting, you just seem annoyed that your Wife-O-Matic 4000 is malfunctioning and you can't find the factory reset button.

[HoldYerWhist]

She was diagnosed with depression and prescribed anti-d's.

[Inkanta]

Not sure if the wife is depressed and needs counselling myself. I think her days are hard work and stressful and she's not getting any down time.

I think you could help by doing equal parenting and communicating on an equal level. If you communicate in a caring and respectful way - showing appreciation and gratitude for all her efforts whilst you're away, I think that will be progress.