Irish abortion laws

[crumpet]

In all the publicity about the gay marriage referendum Aibu to wonder why there hasn't been mention of the abortion laws? Have I missed discussion on this?

"The fact remains the Irish people have not democratically chosen to clarify this issue despite having opportunities to do so - yet."

Do you think it they had another opportunity there'd be a similar campaign? Would celebrities be all over social media encouraging their fans to vote? Woild people be flying home for that vote?

For those of us who've been campaigning for abortion rights since the 1990s, this is still a very important day for equal rights!

One thing to remember, being cynical, is that a constitutional amendment (which both gay marriage AND the revision of abortion laws require) is predicated on political willingness to put forward a motion for constitutional amendment.

The (cynical, largely right-wing, certainly not particularly progressive) political establishment in Ireland judged correctly that the social climate in the country would, even if the gay marriage amendment was not carried, at least not punish them for bringing the matter to a public vote. It is at a political, to be honest, a dog-and-pony show designed to distract from austerity, the neoliberal agenda, and the gradual stripping of assets and rights from the Irish people. That's not to say this isn't a truly wonderful result, it is - but it's not about 'rights' generally.

The way in which campaigners like Clare Daly have been treated by the Dáil is shameful; her attempts at bringing forward changed legislation have been treated with utter contempt, and the government has stated outright that there will be no movement towards constitutional or legislative change in its lifetime. Those of us attempting to #RepealThe8th can protest as much as we like but right now there has to be a regrouping.

I am more positive that this referendum will have a wider effect - after a few years during which the No voters realise that gay marriage has no detrimental effects, and that the likes of the US-fundamentalist-backed Iona Pretendstitute are lying to them, they may well open their minds more.

Having emigrated to the UK recently I'm gutted that I can't be back to help in the fight. But I recently had to contemplate a TFMR and the kindness and just all-round ethical decency and compassion with which I was treated by medical staff made me all the more determined that nobody at home should have to tolerate this.

This thread is paternalistic and very offensive. Ireland is a separate nation and we have no need or desire to ape the British. We will find a solution to our abortion problem in time. Our historical over reliance on the church is due in no small part to be ruled against our will by the British. The rescue Irish women thread was bad enough ( I had to hide it as the title was rising BP). So fuck of begrudgers

I think that's my worry- this will allow the political establishment to say "look, we've been liberal, what more do you want?" And the same for the less thoughtful of the voters. This was an ethical issue and obviously the result is fantastic- but for most voters it was a "no brainer". Getting them out was an amazing achievement, but once out the result was pretty clear. I just worry that among the establishment and among some voters there'll be a sense of having ticked the "liberal" box without a huge amount of effort, so other things can go on the back burner.........

I'm not sure about that Mary, as one of the extreme liberals. I have come across people who will argue that on a purely theoretical basis, as forced pregnancy is a crime against women, one might posit that no time limit was reasonable.

But I've never met a single campaigner who would attempt to enshrine that in unworkable law. For most of the people I know and campaign with, the only defining element to any solution is that it is the woman herself who makes the determination that she can have an abortion, not a panel of psychiatrists or doctors or lawyers, which is what we're currently up against.

The marriage equality debate was already being confused in some people's heads with non related issues like adoption, surrogacy etc. It would have done the campaign a disservice to bring abortion into it. However, in Ireland the grass roots campaigning about reproductive rights hasn't stopped and probably will grow now as many of the people involved were also working on the marriage campaign. Its of course wrong to hold up Ireland as some sort of progressive utopia, but a lot of people put a lot of effort into the victory, think they should enjoy it

For fuck sake mumsnet. I've spent the last few days in a warm glow, having to take breaks from social media as I keep crying, so damn p proud of my country and the progress we've made. And then I came on here. Sigh.

If you can't see the distance between allowing gay marriage (a wholly positive thing) and legalising abortion, then you're being willfully obtuse, IMO.

We will get there on reproductive rights. It will take a while, as it's a much more divisive issue, but we'll get there. And yesterday's result, showing we can go against the church, the political engagement of the youth and moving on from times past can only help.

Yesterday's result was a vote for equality, and that can only help other campaigns for equality down the line.

Now let us celebrate our fucking victory.

We're allowed one day, surely!

"It means that any women who is, or who might be, pregnant (so all females older than about 9, or younger than 60) has no automatic right to life under Irish law."

Actually, she does have a right to life if the foetus is threatening hers.

Actually, she does have a right to life if the foetus is threatening hers.

The constitution contradicts itself on that matter.

But yes, woman's basic human rights are so compromised that we actually need special laws saying that women are allowed to live if the foetus they are carrying will kill them.

It's an extraordinary, and very offensive, situation.

Abortion has no place in the constitution.

That was the legal advice given to the government in the early 80s that they ignored.

You legislate for abortion.

You don't "copperfasten" it into the constitution.

An amendment such as you suggest would be unconstitutional currently.

You couldn't have it without removing the 8th amendment.

And if you remove it, knowing what happened since 1983, why would you put another abortion amendment in?

Legislate for your 15 weeks (or whatever).

I'm pro-choice and do support abortion on demand. But I'd settle for abortion still being illegal if the 8th amendment was gone.

"But yes, woman's basic human rights are so compromised that we actually need special laws saying that women are allowed to live if the foetus they are carrying will kill them."

Bathtime, no, even before this was put into law, a woman's life could be saved even at the risk to the foetus.

"I personally believe that if a fairly restrictive abortion was suggested, the majority of people would be in favour of it."

I agree. I think the issue will be with what the restrictions are. I imagine cases of FFA will probably be the first to be considered.

I'm not sure people would be happy with the '15 weeks on demand idea' though.

Bathtime, no, even before this was put into law, a woman's life could be saved even at the risk to the foetus.

In theory.

But the 8th still stood, and no legislation was forthcoming, so the legal situation was murky at best.

And a woman died because of it.

Like we knew a woman would eventually, but we let it happen all the same.

No, even before the 8th, that existed.

I think I know which case you are talking about and her death wasn't caused by the 8th even though people like to bring it up all the time for that.

Her death was caused by the 8th, even if pro-lifers like to pretend otherwise.

Checking a for a foetal heartbeat when a woman was miscarrying and making treatment decisions on that basis.

The fucking shame of it.

But no, Ireland's not a backward country at all.

Anyway, not really in the mood to get entrenched in an abortion debate. The sun is shining and I'm still on a high from yesterday :)

Yes you are being unreasonable.

Just so we know who we're talking about.....

colonial bullshit is right imo. In fact maybe come back to us when youve managed to implement a democratic electoral system yourselves. Do you need our help on that?

I must say I do look fwd to your EU referendum- shockingly you may find that a popular vote may not result in the result you want. And yet it will be a democratic decision of the people And you'll have to live and deal with it.

This is unbelievably offensive, so I'm allowing myself to shout: GET YOUR OWN HOUSE IN ORDER BEFORE YOU START COMPLAINING ABOUT OURS.

You do realise you live in a country where there is no marriage equality and no abortion, right? Oh, you don't count Northern Ireland? You don't remember that a few weeks ago there was a serious moment where it looked like the DUP might be the minor coalition party in a Tory-led government in Westminster?

Why on earth is the situation in Northern Ireland not talked about more? Why does nobody on 'the mainland' care?! I have long wondered this, but it seems even more outrageous when British people are slagging off Ireland for only overcoming ONE issue of inequality, when there are fellow British people who have to travel for abortion and who can't get married.

Also: LESBIANS ARE PEOPLE TOO!! Honestly, the idea that women weren't part of this debate is disgusting: read about Una Mullally or Ursula Hannigan, think about the impact this will have on women and men and how many years people have fought for it. Just because in your head, being a liberal nation with equal rights involves abortion before marriage equality, doesn't' mean they automatically equate for everyone - for real equality, I would like to see the pay gap removed, I would like to see equal access to healthcare, I would like to see a million and one other things which you don't include here.

Finally, while I'm Irish, i actually live in the UK and have a lot of family scattered through the home counties. Don't kid yourself marriage equality would have passed without issue in the UK if it was sent to popular vote. My English family is a hell of a lot more conservative than my most rural and catholic Irish family on a whole host of issues. The world on mumsnet, while it reflects the world I live in and many of my views, is not representative of majority opinion, and I think slagging off a country that has to actually have the national debates and influence everyone for not doing everything at once is a bit premature until you've experienced something similar.

I think today would be an appropriate day for Ireland to remember Savita Halappanavar and reflect on her death. That is not colonial bullshit, that is just disappointment that among the self congratulation, no one can bring themselves to acknowledge that a country where women do not have reproductive freedom is not a country where women are free.