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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Irish abortion laws

999 replies

crumpet · 23/05/2015 16:38

In all the publicity about the gay marriage referendum Aibu to wonder why there hasn't been mention of the abortion laws? Have I missed discussion on this?

OP posts:
leedy · 23/05/2015 18:23

Also as someone pointed out on Twitter today, I think today's result was also a big two fingers up to the Iona Institute and their ilk and their outmoded vision of holy Ireland, and I think it's got a lot of younger people politically engaged. Bodes well for the possibility of getting rid of the eighth (though God, I'm not looking forward to the No campaign on that one).

BathtimeFunkster · 23/05/2015 18:24

I also found the #hometovote thing deeply annoying.

It was the worst of mawkish Irish sentimental self-congratulation.

Similar to the tweets I've started seeing saying things like "Ireland is teaching the world a thing or two about equality." Hmm

Erm... excuse me?

Marriage equality has been legal in other countries for years now.

And none of them have a constitution that denies women basic human rights.

I'm thrilled about the result today.

But I am still allowed to be pissed off when people want to pretend that this victory makes Ireland a paragon of equality.

MitzyLeFrouf · 23/05/2015 18:27

Erm... excuse me?

Marriage equality has been legal in other countries for years now.

Yes but Ireland is the first country to introduce marriage equality by popular vote.

MitzyLeFrouf · 23/05/2015 18:29

But I am still allowed to be pissed off when people want to pretend that this victory makes Ireland a paragon of equality.

Well you certainly sound very pissed off.

Alisvolatpropiis · 23/05/2015 18:31

We should perhaps turn our eye to a Northern Ireland, which has been allowed to opt out of laws re abortion and gay marriage...

leedy · 23/05/2015 18:33

Yes, you sound more pissed off than the people I know who, y'know, actually organize pro-choice marches and campaigns and stuff and try to do something about our stupid abortion laws. They're just happy about today's result (while still planning the next campaign).

AbsoluteGonk · 23/05/2015 18:35

No problem, kitty, I see now how it could have been misinterpreted as me being sarky.

BathtimeFunkster · 23/05/2015 18:40

I'm not very pissed off. This is a great day. I'm delighted.

But just because I'm happy about one thing doesn't mean other things can't irritate me.

Yes but Ireland is the first country to introduce marriage equality by popular vote.

See, this is the kind of thing I mean.

Yes, it is very heartening to see a country vote so overwhelmingly in favour of something so positive. I think Fintan O'Toole had been dead right on it - it made us proud of ourselves again.

But it is also the case that the only reason for the referendum is that the constitution, and its bizarre and unlovely treatment of marriage.

States that passed gay marriage legislation using their own representative democratic systems aren't worse than Ireland.

Ireland's requirement to have a referendum due to its 1930s constitution isn't teaching them anything.

Equal marriage will be inserted into a legal document that denies women of childbearing age basic personhood under the law.

I think it's OK to think that is a bittersweet victory.

crumpet · 23/05/2015 18:43

Alis, I agree. Makes the Northern Ireland position even more out of step.

OP posts:
MitzyLeFrouf · 23/05/2015 18:44

Very sorry I'm causing you so much irritation.

leedy · 23/05/2015 18:45

I suppose I just think that that's the next fight, rather than being all angsty about how we haven't fixed EVERYTHING and so we can't be proud of what we've done today without adding in BUT OF COURSE THIS OTHER THING IS SHIT SO ACTUALLY WE'RE REALLY AWFUL HYPOCRITES. It's all a bit too whataboutery, at least this close to the victory.

And yeah, I know the end result of a referendum and other states introducing equal marriage via legislation is more or less the same, but isn't the fact that everyone actually said they wanted this (versus "we voted in some politicians, some of whom wanted this and enacted this") kind of lovely?

Also I presume you'll be getting involved in #RepealThe8th, then?

BathtimeFunkster · 23/05/2015 18:45

You don't have any idea what I've done about Irish abortion laws.

MitzyLeFrouf · 23/05/2015 18:47

If this hadn't been voted in the Iona brigade would be banging on till the end of time about gay marriage being forced on an unwilling populace.

villainousbroodmare · 23/05/2015 18:51

Wow. Some grim beeyatches on here. Let me make a quick list of people we must definitely invite to our next party... NOT! Grin

leedy · 23/05/2015 18:51

"You don't have any idea what I've done about Irish abortion laws."

No, I don't, and I'm delighted if you've been campaigning, I just think making that the issue today and downplaying/denigrating TRIUMPH A because we haven't done TRIUMPH B is just kind of inappropriate/begrudging. No matter how pleased you are with the result.

BathtimeFunkster · 23/05/2015 18:52

I'm not being angsty about how we haven't fixed everything.

I'm saying I don't enjoy reading about how Ireland is an exemplar to the world of equality when that equality doesn't extend to women.

Yes, it's amazing and very emotional to see the results coming in.

But the fact that there had to be a referendum doesn't make Ireland better than countries that didn't have to have them.

A little bit of perspective might be nice.

leedy · 23/05/2015 18:52

"If this hadn't been voted in the Iona brigade would be banging on till the end of time about gay marriage being forced on an unwilling populace."

OH GOD, can you imagine. Breda might implode.

Though, hmm, Breda imploding...

MitzyLeFrouf · 23/05/2015 18:53

An Irish person indulging in a bit of begrudgery? Never!

MitzyLeFrouf · 23/05/2015 18:54

Breda imploding whilst standing in close proximity to John Waters would be the ideal.

BathtimeFunkster · 23/05/2015 18:56

I'm not making anything "the issue" today.

Most of my day has been spent following and celebrating the referendum result.

I can't see how having occasional thoughts of a negative nature about some of the more hyperbolic comments I've seen and talking about it on a thread on Mumsnet has any bearing on what today is "about".

leedy · 23/05/2015 18:57

"A little bit of perspective might be nice."

Sorry, not doing "perspective" today, and seriously, I'm about as fucked off about our abortion laws as you can get. And I know you say you're pleased and amazed and etc. etc., but you're coming across as if you think this isn't really all that important compared to the "real" issue of abortion rights. That's not what today is about.

Topseyt · 23/05/2015 18:57

Ireland is in no way a backward society. It has just taken a big step forward on voting to legalise gay marriage. That is a great result.

Abortion remains an issue there and still up for debate, as it should be.

One thing at a time, as others have said already. Legalising gay marriage is a sizeable step in the right direction.

I would have thought that the abortion issue will follow suit in due course, but I think that if you push too far too fast you are much less likely to get the desired result.

I am pro choice. Abortion should not have a blanket ban, as I believe it has in Ireland. It should be legal within certain constraints, as in many other countries including the UK.

I know our system has its flaws, and has certainly been open to criticism and, dare I say it, abuse in some quarters, but it does at least provide options where needed and all but eliminated the dangerous trade of back-street abortions.

As already mentioned upthread, there are some pregnancies which are sadly highly likely to end in stillbirth or produce a baby who will die shortly after birth.

Others may be a serious risk to the health (physical and mental) of the mother.

All these are reasons why Ireland and any other countries where abortion is illegal really need to think again in my opinion.

I am very much pro-choice. The reasons why a pregnancy may need to be terminated are many and varied, and few women take the decision lightly.

In an ideal world these choices should be available to all women regardless of where they live.

lostincumbria · 23/05/2015 19:02

Well done, Ireland. You should be proud. Enjoy it, bask in it this glorious weekend.

chickenfuckingpox · 23/05/2015 19:06

gay rights have louder lobbyists?

abortion in Ireland i can see that kicking off massively im actually surprised that the gay rights has gone through so easily i thought it might have been a close vote

Maryz · 23/05/2015 19:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.