Irish abortion laws

[crumpet]

In all the publicity about the gay marriage referendum Aibu to wonder why there hasn't been mention of the abortion laws? Have I missed discussion on this?

I agree that abortion is a much trickier moral issue than gay marriage, and the now surely inevitable referendum campaign will be much more harrowing for the country. However I think Panti said it best yesterday when to paraphrase, he said that the vote yesterday didn't change the country, it was confirmation of how much the country has changed. When the 8th amendment was voted in, homosexuality was illegal and to remain so for another decade, divorce for another 12. The 8th amendment is a relic from a different age. Which is not to say that culturally Ireland is anywhere near the UK in terms of attitudes to abortion. The problem with a proposal to remove the 8th in its entirety is that scaremongers would present it as opening the way to abortion on demand to term - something the majority of people in Ireland (or most countries) would not want. So the difficulty is definitely going to be in framing just what people will be voting for (I personally would prefer something similar to the French regime - on demand to 14 weeks, permissible for serious health etc reasons thereafter)

"Checking a for a foetal heartbeat when a woman was miscarrying and making treatment decisions on that basis."

The fetal heartbeat was checked when she was first admitted and then at midday the day before she died. Knowing that she was miscarrying, she had declined further monitoring of the heartbeat. They did not believe that her life was in danger so they were 'awaiting events'. They had decided to induce delivery when they recognised(too late) that she was deteriorating.

Also: LESBIANS ARE PEOPLE TOO!! Honestly, the idea that women weren't part of this debate is disgusting:"

It would be- if anyone had suggested it!

Mind you, nobody ever died of not being able to get married.

Well said Verence

I live in NI. Let's not even talk about how fucked up our politics are. Because no one ever does, so why rock the boat? Just let us go happily along, enjoying the 18th C level of political freedom. Really. We don't mind. [/sarcasm]

I agree 100% with MaryZ's stance on any abortion law in any country.

Fuck, the US Supreme Court passed Roe Vs Wade in 1973 and they are still debating it.

It absolutely should not be a political issue. Is heart surgery? Breast implants? Any sort of medical procedure, with the exception of euthanasia (which I also think shouldn't be a political thing)?

So that's OK then is it, bumbleymummy? Nothing to do with abortion rights- she died because she "declined monitoring".

Don't twist what I'm saying Bertrand. You suggested that treatment decisions were made based on the foetal heartbeat. I'm pointing out that they made their decisions without monitoring the heartbeat.

Also: LESBIANS ARE PEOPLE TOO!!

Not under the Irish constitution, they're not.

People have a human right to life.

Women in the Republic of Ireland only have a right to life equal to that of any foetus, embryo, or zygote they might be gestating.

So, not the same right to life as a men (actual people) have.

Because they think the human foetus should have an equal right to life too and unfortunately men can't gestate foetuses. I don't think they're making out that women aren't people

The 8th amendment affects much more than abortion. It also affects maternity care. It restricts informed consent for women in maternity care. This has been challenged in the courts and has been defeated (Hamilton vs HSE). So basically once a woman walks into an Irish maternity hospital, due to the 8th she has no rights any more. She may be lucky and get HCP that respects her choice or she could get intervention she didn't consent to, episotomy, arm etc, it's happening every day.

nocountryforpregnantwomen.blogspot.ie/2014/08/think-8th-amendment-is-only-abortion.html?m=1

feministire.com/2015/04/26/island-of-no-consent-maternity-care-and-bodily-autonomy-in-ireland/

If you give a human foetus rights, never mind equal rights to the woman carrying it, you reduce that woman from a person to an incubator.

And let's not get into this "Savita didn't die because of the 8th". She wouldn't have died in England because her miscarriage would have been treated immediately as she requested. Other women have died or suffered because of the 8th so please don't insult us by suggesting we don't bring her death into the debate

Actually MaryZ, I've pretty much been in agreement with you on this thread (except for people accepting the 15 week idea) so I'm not sure why you're talking about my 'extreme views'.

She wouldn't even have died in Belfast, where abortion is also illegal, because she would have been treated as a person, as the patient, and not as the host of an equally important person.

Bathtime, she may have had better treatment in another Irish hospital where they actually picked up on her deteriorating condition and took action.

But there would have been no "deteriorating condition" if she had miscarried in a country that recognised her personhood, that treated her as the patient.

"She would have died in Belfast if she had an infection that wasn't treated.

The hospital are totally to blame for her death because they didn't treat her for sepsis. Irish law does not prevent the treatment of a woman even when that treatment causes the death of her foetus.

But let's not let facts get in the way of ranting at everyone"

I agree with this. Sorry MaryZ.

There would have been no sepsis if she had received the standard treatment for her miscarriage that she would have had in the UK, including Northern Ireland.

Who knows in belfast or anywhere else, medical malpractice happens in every country even in the UK, although I agree with you the 8th contributed. But I would like to see the statistics before we conclude that the UK is killing less women through medical negligence than Ireland is?
Maryz I agree with absolutely and completely on the extremist views, I find myself coming to the defence of a pro-life poster because the other posters are infuriating me so much!

Bathtime, in NI they also monitor and 'await events'.

Do they?

God, how horrifying.

I was under the impression that pregnant women were treated as human beings in Northern Ireland and were considered to be the patient in any medical situation.

I must go back and recheck my sources.