Irish abortion laws

[crumpet]

In all the publicity about the gay marriage referendum Aibu to wonder why there hasn't been mention of the abortion laws? Have I missed discussion on this?

It depends on when you have the abortion and the impact it may have on your mental health.

Can I ask you your personal opinion bumbly on how a society without abortion could work? Do you not see what happens in countries where it isn't legal? Women in Ireland are lucky, we live so close to a country where it is legal. Abortion will always be needed and will always be used. No amount of brainwashing (that it is murder) will stop women from making the choice to end an unwanted pregnancy

Late back to this, but re the Canadian poll:

Bumbley, you cherry-picked. The poll actually showed that overall support for both unrestricted abortion and abortion in certain circumstances, had increased in Canada since 1988.

Your question was 'I wonder if it will change...'

Since support for unrestricted abortion is higher now than when they introduced the Act, then I would think it's unlikely.

Yes, the one poll question you highlighted was there, but as I said before, perhaps the lawmakers have decided that it is a decision between a woman and her doctor - nobody's else's business.

Lucy, Ireland does work and I don't honk it's because it's beside the UK.

Sabrinna, it's not cherry picking. Specifically related to what we were talking about re increasing the limit to allow late term (third trimester) abortions, the majority of people in Canada actually think that abortions at that stage need to be restricted. FACT.

Think* not honk :)

"It depends on when you have the abortion and the impact it may have on your mental health"

Generally, no, it doesn't.

Abortion is much less likely to kill you than childbirth, for instance: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22270271

And pregnancy and childbirth can have disastrous effects on mental health - the most unwell I've ever been was the PND I had after DS1 was born. There's no proof that abortion is per se more likely to have negative mental health outcomes than childbirth, particularly a single first trimester abortion: "The best scientific evidence published indicates that among adult women who have an unplanned pregnancy the relative risk of mental health problems is no greater if they have a single elective first-trimester abortion than if they deliver that pregnancy"
www.apa.org/pi/women/programs/abortion/

From the same report, later termination for medical reasons "appears to be associated with negative psychological reactions equivalent to those experienced by women who miscarry a wanted pregnancy or who experience
a stillbirth or death of a newborn, but less than those who deliver a child with life-threatening abnormalities."

Canada didn't just dream up the abortion laws on a whim. There is a hard-fought history of legislation and Supreme Court decisions.

In 1988 The Supreme Court of Canada strikes down Canada's abortion law as unconstitutional. The law is found to violate Section 7 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms because it infringes upon a woman's right to "life, liberty and security of person." Canada becomes one of a small number of countries without a law restricting abortion. Abortion is now treated like any other medical procedure and is governed by provincial and medical regulations.

The woman's right to "life, liberty and security of person" will be protected for the duration of her pregnancy.

Sorry what? Am I reading that right? Ireland exports their abortions how the bloody hell is that Ireland working? If we weren't so close to the UK you would find many many illegal abortions happening. Our maternity care is in pieces with women being told to stop crying after they have lost a child (portlaoise) and
Over 150,000 women from Ireland have travelled to the UK since 1982! You're deluded Bumbly!

"There's no proof that abortion is per se more likely to have negative mental health outcomes than childbirth,"

There's also no proof that it won't. No one knows how they will feel about it. For some it has lifelong consequences.

Later term abortions are risky - I do have papers on it on my computer. I will read yours tomorrow.

Except that her 'life, liberty and security of person' doesn't necessarily require a termination all the way to term. The majority of people think it should be restricted. The majority of women think it should be restricted (from that same poll). That says a lot.

"Ireland does work"

Seriously, bumbley, you don't think that the fact that we're next to the UK and (more rarely) Holland (and more recently abortion pills are available online) is the only thing stopping us having women having backstreet abortions and probably dying from them? SERIOUSLY? Like "having to go to England" has a specific cultural meaning here because women travel for abortions so frequently. The "pro-life amendment" hasn't stopped women having abortions, it hasn't caused everyone here to go "oh well, clearly abortions are bad and we're just not meant to have them", it's just meant that having an abortion involves extra expense and travel at a stressful time, and it truly fucks over women who are poor, or have visa issues with leaving the country.

It's total ostrich head-in-the-sand "it's not happening here so it's not happening"/"let's pretend we're Holy Pure Catholic Ireland", an absolute fucking disaster that has already killed or nearly killed people and traumatized still more, and even our politicians and legal experts (publicly or otherwise) admit that. And yet you say "it does work". I thought you were just a bit dim, but you are truly, magnificently deluded.

Except that her 'life, liberty and security of person' doesn't necessarily require a termination all the way to term.

That would be your (rather strange) opinion bumbley - and you can express it till the end of the thread - but the Canadian Supreme Court doesn't agree.

Over 30 years... That's fewer abortions than are carried out in the UK in one year. There is now also better/easier access to contraception and emergency contraception. It's not perfect but it's not not working.

Not sure why you're bringing up examples of crap maternity services - the UK has its fair share of problems with that too.

"No one knows how they will feel about it. For some it has lifelong consequences."

I never said there was proof that it wouldn't have negative consequences (which would be impossible). But as per the paper I found, carrying a pregnancy to term is statistically as likely to have a negative mental health impact as a first trimester abortion. I am assuming that the American Psychological Association know what they're talking about and are able to construct a study.

But the majority of Canada do Think it needs to be restricted Sabrina. The people lining thee think that - their liberty, their lives and that's what they think.

Leedy, and you're not factoring in the trade off of another life.

Oh it's working all right - working to restrict the rights of women unless they can afford to come to the UK, or decide to buy abortion pills (illegally?) on the internet.

It's not working for women with unwanted pregnancies though.

Supreme Court disagrees, bumbley. You cannot escape that fact - when looking into legal and constitutional matters, the Supreme Court might look a little bit beyond an Ipsos poll.

It's working for the unborn. Recognition of their right to life.

we'll see Sabrinna :)

I'm talking about medical services for women in general in Ireland that's why I brought up maternity care. You're like a child bumbly "don't know why you're talking about Ireland when the UK are just as bad" FFS we're not talking about maternity care in the UK!

You do realise that the uk have a much much larger population than Ireland don't you?

You can bury your head in the sand bumbly, meanwhile 13 women from Ireland will travel to the UK for an abortion everyday this week.

"It's not perfect but it's not not working."

Seriously, bumbley, I live here. I have been protesting about this since the late 80s. I've talked to my friend's mum who worked for the Crisis Pregnancy Agency, I've been pregnant here three times, I've got friends who've had crisis pregnancies including fatal foetal abnormality diagnoses and have (in some cases) "travelled" and they all talk about how the need to travel just makes everything more stressful. It's not working. Because no matter how much contraception is available, you can't eliminate crisis pregnancies.

Unless by "working" you mean "make it as hard as possible for women to get abortions, no matter how much distress and suffering this causes because I think they're bad". In which case, yeah, we're doing GREAT, thanks. Pro-life beacon to the world

We we are talking about the UK because we're comparing Ireland and the UK.

I don't think Ireland will ever adopt the same laws on abortion as the UK.

"You do realise that the uk have a much much larger population than Ireland don't you?"

I was wondering if that had occurred to her, alright.

The mother's rights come first.

As this threads kicks and screams it's way to the end, I'll say goodnight.

It's often useful to have a Bumbley on a thread about contentious subjects like this - it can make people examine their own feelings very deeply on a subject, in a way that you don't when you're, say, amongst friends.

I feel very strongly in favour of the Canadian Model now.