Irish abortion laws

[crumpet]

In all the publicity about the gay marriage referendum Aibu to wonder why there hasn't been mention of the abortion laws? Have I missed discussion on this?

Maryz the 'people' being allowed to choose is a double edged sword, really. I would think the contents of a woman's uterus is between her, her HCP and possibly her partner. Not the entire adult population.
Having said that, the yes vote is fantastic, so well done there. I'm pretty sure we would have voted the same way in the UK, given the opportunity. I don't think there was much serious opposition to it.

I think women should be allowed to decide what happens to their own bodies, it's not something people have a right to decide on.

This thread is about abortion laws, so no pissing on chips here.

Agree with others - completely different issue. It has nothing to do with today's referendum.

I don't think that one person on this thread is not delighted about the result, absolutely delighted. However, when such glaring inequality exists for women it's only right that thoughts turn to the antiquated abortion laws.

Theawfuldaughter - 'a lonely ferry journey over to Liverpool' wtf??? You do know it is 2015 not 1951 don't you? We might not have abortion but we do have Ryanair.

Seriously, Maryz? Wow. Legalisation of contraception and abortion in Ireland has been such a publicised issue over the years, that I was surprised to see that it hadn't cropped up at all during the referendum that I could see.

Can't find a single chip that I've pissed on in that.

But OK,this is Aibu, and you think I am.

Luckily I am off to my sister and BIL's who were at the count for pizza and celebrating later. Nobody is going to piss on anything (except perhaps the baby).

Please don't piss on the baby .... :o

The way I see it is that abortion and gay marriage are two seperate issues. AFAIK there have been years of campaigning around abortion and that is an ongoing fight. Legalisation of gay marriage has been a different fight and one that has been won. No one is now saying 'oh well let's the abortion thing go, can't win them all'. Change often leads to more change, maybe this victory will be a stepping stone to others.

Obviously gay marriage and abortion are two quite separate issues.
Lets just hope that today's resounding result shows that the Church is losing its grip on the people of Ireland, and that they will carry on liberalising.

Perhaps a more interesting question is why in the UK we never seem to hear much mention of the abortion law in the North of Ireland.

KittyandTeal I am so sorry to hear that

My friend went through similar and was forced to travel to England for a termination of pregnancy, was a heartbreaking experience. She felt ashamed, and told the vast majority of people that she had a miscarriage, it was just awful.

Abortion is a dramatically different issue to Marriage Equality.

One involves making people happy... The other involves killing unborn babies.

Marriage Equality. allowing two people who love each other to share their lives,it doesn't really affect anyone but the two people involved...though their may be knock on effects in the long run when it comes family matters etc the core message is Love should be allowed. Many personal stories in the media emphasised the message of equality and inclusion. Being Gay is not considered unusual in Ireland anymore,its normalised in the media and many people personally know people who it affects directly. The younger generation are open to change and helped to convince their elders.

Abortion....is controversial. It disquietens even non religious people to think of potential lives been removed. Yes the church and religion has an influence....but the overall attitude is still very anti-abortion here. We ship away our inconvenient problem to England and call that the solution. Very few people have personal direct experience of people who have had abortions. It is rarely talked about in the media. Few women admit to having it done. It is not considered as normal by many of the younger generation. The older generations are often opposed partly due to religious influence partly due to issues discussing anything to do with sexuality.

Age limits etc will skew the vote.Trying to even chose the wording would be a minefield....How many people will balk at the thought of over 20 weeks but be fine with early medical abortion? trying to balance between the two extremes of vehemently pro life and pro choice will be near impossible.

We cant even simplify the wording for medical abortion when the mother is trying to kill herself or agree to abort children that are non compatable with life. What are the chances that more lenient abortion law will be workable and sellable to the vast majority of the voting public if we cannot even work the above?

I am pro choice btw,am Irish and voted yes... but I do not see abortion passing in this country anytime soon even if they do go to referendum.

"I think women should be allowed to decide what happens to their own bodies, it's not something people have a right to decide on."

Generally I agree, but given that a shower of gobshites got a protection of the unborn clause inserted into our constitution in '83 the only way to get it back out again is by referendum.

Op YANBU. I remember reading a thread on here about a poor lady who had died and her body was decomposing and yet still the doctors had to wait for a court ruling before she was allowed to rest in peace because there was a fetal heartbeat.

It shocked me as much as the things you read about the treatment of women by the Taliban. So yes my first thought on hearing the news was, oh my goodness they have been able to get equal rights for gay couples but pregnant women still have no rights at all.

This is just colonial fucking bullshit. Oh don't go getting above your stations being all smug about, you know, young people using their fucking mandate to vote for what they value and calling having a constitution that requires the people to vote on changes to it backward? It's called democracy. If you believe in democracy you can't call a nation backward because it hasn't voted in accordance with your values. At least the question is asked. There are plenty people in the UK who are not even vaguely liberal and who would vociferously vote against abortion, women's rights, divorce and same sex marriage. Don't cod yourselves on this.

And opinion polls since 2004 have consistently demonstrated a shift towards people 45 and under in favour of abortion in most circumstances. The law will change. The tragic cases in recent years have also mainly arisen from piss poor maternity care which is in many respects a far more pressing issue but not as 'sexy' politically and the case mentioned above arose out of lack of legal clarity: in the end everyone agreed that the doctors could always have turned off life support but they were unclear about the legal status and wanted clarity. Nearly everyone in Ireland agrees the laws are not functional and need to be revisited, even if they are ambivalent about abortion on demand.

What a backward country the UK is. It doesn't have equal marriage rights or abortion. Those posting should really look closer to home before making a fool of themselves talking about other countries.

A few people on another thread today where criticising the Seanad, this from a nation with the House of Lords and the Royal family ffs!

Well I'm thrilled today. I'm in the hospital with my newborn and a massive leap forward for decent, compassionate liberal values has just taken place. We've travelled a good step further along the road to being the country that I want my new baby to grow up in.

Now, I want abortion rights for her as well. I know that will be the next big issue. But taking one day at a time matters. Ok so I'd have liked it a lot if my issue was the first one dealt with, but it wasn't. But this was the issue for some of my friends and family and nobody should take this moment from them.

Also, if you're still thinking that contraception is illegal in Ireland, maybe this is an example of a thread where you read and learn.

Women are not really people according to the Irish constitution.

Apparently it's not OK to simultaneously care about that AND think that it's great that marriage equality passed by a huge margin.

It seems that there was a whole day that was about equality, but that equality didn't include women.

And in fine Irish tradition, asking that celebration of marriage equality might adknowledge, even through lack of crowing, that the legal framework of the country is still massively anti-woman, is called begrudgery and shouted down.

We must allow other people to tell us what days are "about".

So marriage equality didn't matter to women? Better tell that to all my gay female friends, especially those with kids (and in reality, as far more gay women than men have children and this referendum enshrines their family rights in the constitution this had much more immediate practical implications for more women than men).

I'm also not sure how the constitution says women are not really people because the Irish people, men and women, have democratically voted on five separate occasions in thirty years to afford protection to the unborn. If all the women of Ireland were committed to changing this, it would have changed a long time ago but it is a difficult subject for many people and mixed feelings about it are not confined to backwards rosary clutching Irish Catholics nor women suffering internal misogyny, nor men. Abortion very often arises in difficult and sometimes tragic circumstances, it is a genuinely sad event for many people and it is as difficult for people to be positively enthusiastic about it as it is easy to be joyous about love.

I was 14 at the time of the X case and in later years, I knew her personally. I have campaigned on this for my whole life. I am well aware of the tragic impact of our current law. And at the same time I strongly feel THIS thread is about insisting the Irish get back into their neat little backwards box. Things are not all rosy in the UK, you know. I have only recently returned to Ireland, having been involved in services for vulnerable adults in the UK where I have seen huge oppression of women. A legal framework on abortion is only one small part of the women's rights agenda in any country. There's a lot of work to be done in the UK on equality and the UK is infinitely better resourced than Ireland to make changes, so every person who is not in Ireland and has no intention of supporting Irish women positively other than wringing their hands about how backwards we are would do well to look at what they are willing to commit to acting on in their own context.

In the modern age, there's been an increasing move towards the idea that "people's individual choices should be respected unless they inpinge of those of others." Hence, increasing acceptance of same sex marriage is quite natural and expected.

Abortion, on the other hand, pits the rights of the woman against those of the fetus, and so it is inevitably more complicated. I am pro choice, mind you.

I'm also not sure how the constitution says women are not really people

The 8th amendment gives any foetus or embryo you are (or might be) carrying the same right to life as you.

That's a personhood law. It's the holy grail for far right crazies.

It means that any women who is, or who might be, pregnant (so all females older than about 9, or younger than 60) has no automatic right to life under Irish law.

The most basic and fundamental human right is not afforded to women of childbearing age.

The wording of the 8th amendment also gives the Irish state almost unlimited powers to protect the right to life of actual (or possible) "unborn" at the expense of their hosts/incubators.

Every subsequent abortion referendum has been a futile attempt to put right (or strengthen) the evil that Irish people voted for in 1983.

It is a scandalous, backward, shameful law. And making it possible for two not really people to marry each other and raise their not really people children doesn't negate that.

I don't understand your logic, The two are just not in that sort of relational frame. How would it make it right or negate it? It wouldn't. The function of the marriage referendum was not to negate abortion reform.

It isn't right to poo poo the equality referendum because it wasn't about abortion. If an abortion referendum had been put forward on the same day, say, it might have brought out a lot more far right crazies.

Very few people outside the far right crazies are happy with the eighth, you surely know this. It is incredibly badly worded and is a huge problem. No one apart from a SPUC extremist is going to argue you on this. The fact remains the Irish people have not democratically chosen to clarify this issue despite having opportunities to do so - yet.

But the marriage referendum shows a shift in demography that is very encouraging. Tactically it is probably brilliant to have a hugely positive liberal vote before abortion is approached again, for people to see the international reaction etc. It is so unfair to give the impression this went ahead because it's about men, but abortion is ignored. Five votes in thirty years and a lot of legislation demonstrate that it is just very hard to deal with. I think it is awful to repeatedly shame Irish people about it as though the whole country supports the status quo.

I just don't understand why there needs to be such a critical, negative response to something positive. It is positive, no matter how you choose to spin it, and it doesn't negate it but it does support a liberal agenda.