To want to have someone pay their way?

[Suffdad79]

I realise this could go down a gender expectation rabbit hole but please bear with me as I do really want to have a female perspective on it:

I'm divorced with two children who I'm lucky and see a lot of and, since the split, I have taken them on holiday a couple of times. Both really nice holidays but would have been nice to have shared them with some grown up company.

Anyway, I am now something of an item with someone I have known a long time and we thought it would be great for the 4 of us to go on holiday together this summer. One of the things I've always known about her was her independence and how she's always working and saying that she would never want to be reliant on a man - that's actually a very attractive quality after being with someone for 9 years who didn't actually contribute anything to the relationship and left a financial apocalypse at the end of it and who happily spent every penny I earned. And yet...

The final balance for the holiday is due and not one penny has so far been forthcoming so i've had to pay the lot today - I'm obviously paying for me and my kids and she was going to pay for herself. Am I likely to see any of that money or am I being taken for a mug? I have a feeling I'm going to do that British thing of letting it slide for the sake of politeness...

Luckily I have a good job, a reasonable lifestyle and I'm making headway in rebuilding my life but I swore to myself I would never again get into any relationship where it wasn't completely equal. I genuinely think that if I end up paying for this, there is no future with her as I'm just setting the tone for the future - again.
Am I being unreasonable about this or should I just accept that, as a man, I'm a walking wallet?

ok, well, you've ensured you are clear. Are you happy with this outcome?

I am a bit surprised that it's 'next week' when she knew the deadline, knew you weren't paying and there was no agreement for you to pay and be reimbursed. I wouldn't be happy with that assumption.

But I also have previous and we're all shaped by our experiences . Before I met my now husband, I had a very frustrating relationship with a bloke who mysteriously never had any cash and would 'pay me back tomorrow/next week/end of the month/12th of never'. Never. Ever. Again.

I'll use the word 'satisfied' for now! lol. Satisfied that the communication is right. And we're both excited about the holiday.

I think some people maybe see it as a bit grubby and unromantic to be discussing money like this but divorce teaches you some harsh lessons and it means that you have to be pragmatic and realistic about future relationships.

You really need to let go of your ex. If this relationship is a runner in your mind, you will have to stop living in the past.

Well yes, it is important to learn from your past or you are doomed to make the same mistakes again and again. It is foolish to take nothing from things that have not ended well for you!

But you cannot let the past ruin the future. Learn from your mistakes. Take responsibility for your part in your mistakes but move on from blame because it's pointless and destructive.

Don't be one of those dreadful men, those bitter my ex blah blah blah because it will turn you into a wanker.

Maybe she's not as enthusiastic about the holiday as you think? It doesn't sound like a romantic relaxing break for her, going away with your kids (and presumably sharing the childcare with you).

Soon after I first met my DH, he invited me on a couple of holidays with him and his kids. He paid for everything and I expected him to. If we'd planned a romantic couples break I would have been fine paying half, but holidaying with kids who are not yours is very different (and exhausting the first few times). If DH had expected me to pay for myself back then I would have thought him very tight! It's different when you're married and they're your stepkids, but in beginning you feel like you're tagging onto someone's else's family holiday. It would be a nice gesture if you showed your appreciation for your partner doing this and paid for her share. At least this time. She's doing you a big favour by agreeing to go away with you AND your kids, when I'm sure she's much rather go with you alone. Until you're committed to each other and she's officially in role of step-parent, she has no obligation to include them in holiday plans.

Personally I find it very off putting when men are tight with money or over-anxious about not being taken advantage of. I think you need to let go of the idea women are out there to use you and demand expensive things, and instead focus on being generous. Even independent women like to feel valued and appreciated. Quibbling over money and splitting bills is IMO something reserved for early days of dating. Most women will voluntarily pay their share... mistrusting that they will, or expecting payment immediately, is not gentlemanly behaviour. It implies you don't trust them.

CaspianSea - talk about a high horse - careful you don't fall off. You might hurt yourself.

Who wouldn't be peed off if you booked a holiday for someone and then they did not pay their share, especially when the cost split had been agreed up front.
OP - YANBU - hope she coughs up without any more hassle.

I'm an independent woman who likes to feel valued and appreciated. No-one ever made me feel that way by chucking money at me

Are your DC adopted? (you don't need to answer here, just think about the answer yourself)
Because if they aren't, they are another thing that presumably your ex 'contributed' to your previous relationship, prior to the whole actually raising them part that other posters have mentioned. Pregnancy/birth is rather taxing, especially multiple times!

You make a good point I guess. The reality is that I've paid for it now anyway so I will see what happens regarding the money but may have to accept that it might be my treat.

It is off-putting I'm sure when a man is over-anxious about being taken advantage of but I can tell you that the only reason I'm like that at the moment is because it happened to me in a big way and to not be even a little bit wary would surely be foolish?

Is the ex also the mother of your children?

Yes she is their mother.

the only reason I'm like that at the moment is because it happened to me in a big way and to not be even a little bit wary would surely be foolish?

Well all I can say is this thread has been around for about three hours. We're all aware of your attitude to your ex and your determination to make sure that no woman does the same thing. I'm pretty sure your girlfriend has heard plenty on the topic if she's known you for longer than that. She will tire of it if you don't stop wallowing is the point if make. She won't want to spend all her summer holidays splitting every bill exactly in half to convince you that she's not your ex while running around after your kids.

You could mention to her that you appreciate her coming on this holiday, by the way. Make sure you don't take her for granted in your single minded determination to make sure it doesn't happen to you.

You are right and I promise my ex is not discussed that much at all because it isn't something I really need to discuss any more. I'm certainly not tight and I've said I'm more than happy to pay when we're out and frequently do without giving it a thought. I would be interested to see what the comments would be on a thread where the situation was the same but the genders were reversed.
And I certainly don't want her to be running round after my kids, they're my responsibility and that is not why we're going on holiday together.

Then perhaps you need to think a bit about what contributions she did make and value them.

Better that than being bitter, don't you think?

So she spent money and contributed nothing to the relationship? Did she raise the children? Do most of the childcare? Did she do the school runs? Cook the meals? Free you up to do your job and bring the money? What was her wage for that? Or were you doing a full time job, all the housework, all the childcare, the school runs, the domestic stuff? You must have been knackered.

I think you do need to take a look at your own views and your own part in your history. Learn from your mistakes, yes, vital. More vital is knowing what your mistakes actually were.

There's no way she won't end up doing some child centered stuff and there's no point in deluding yourself that it can be a kids holiday and a romantic adult break. The thing is, it's her summer holiday too and it's a mark of faith in the relationship that this is how she's using some of her annual leave. Just try to bear that in mind for your own sake if nobody else's.

I have a much different view on things these days and I know from experience that it's best to get things on the table early as little resentments early on will only grow. I have to also be practical as re-starting your life in your mid 30's means that you can't be as frivolous as you were before. I have two children who rely on me after all.

Put this into practice then. Say, "please can you put £xxx into my account when you next get paid? I really need the money. Thanks love""

Nope, you aren't being unreasonable.

I'm a woman who will only accept the same in any new relationship I have.

Having lived with a freeloading man, and now been left on my own with 1, soon to be 2 of his children, I will not be repeating that mistake.

And yes, I think independence in a man or a woman is an attractive quality (and I don't just mean in the financial sense).

I think you are right OP, and I would not be happy in your position. She has had enough time to pay up. In fact, she should have paid it before you were forced to pay for it (as in today was the deadline for it to be paid).

I'm with TheDetective on this.

I lived with a freeloader for 13 years (he probably worked in total 4 of these years) and I was still paying for childcare, doing the childminder runs etc whilst he sat at home and did fuck all.

I have a new partner now (well not so new, but you get my drift) and we split everything down the line (I pay for my children, not him!)

I cannot even begin to tell you the difference it makes in a relationship and how you feel towards someone.

Resentment ruins relationships.

OP forget your ex, and deal with what you have now - she knew the deadline and hasn't paid yet. Call her later, say you have been left short and need the money now please. If she says she can't find out why - if she is being paid next week, then fine, if not, well then you're being taken for a ride.

A lot of good points there.
If it was me, if I had said I was paying my way, i would do it automatically and would not be thinking more about it or thinking you were tight etc...
Two possibilities that came to mind re not paying is if the price changed (or her level of contribution) or of she hadn't planned properly and was now short if cash.

I don't think it's fair to comment on your attitude with your ex. It is possible that you haven't really taken Into account her input re childcare/HW etc and it is also possible that she took advantage. (There are some women who are a pain too).
It is also possible that even having your dcs quite regularly you still don't do the everyday boring but essential stuff with them (unfortunately that comes with being the NRP).
All true but I think irrelevant to your initial question

by any means, don't be a fool. Maybe the discussion you need to have with your current gf is about trust and feeling taken for granted.
You might be surprised by her answer (I'm struggling to see why she is not paying you straight away) and she might be surprised by your own feelings/insecurities.

Apocalypse you're right about the fact she will be involved in looking after the dcs.
That in itself doesn't mean the OP should pay for her nor does it mean that she can get away with not paying when she agreed in the first place.

There is a possibility she is thinking she is taken for a ride and it's not fair for her to pay when she would be so ending her time with dcs, doing child centred stuff etc.
but surely it needs to aired too (IF this the case).

Thanks, I did feel a bit defensive about all the ex stuff being raked up. I'm allowed to feel what I want about that.
I do get to do all the 'boring' domestic stuff with the kids which I'm thankful about because I don't want to be the Disneyland Dad! lol.

Lack of communication is a real issue and something that blighted my marriage as it turns out but knowing my current gf, I really don't think that is an issue! It's one of the things that attracts me to her! I would be surprised if she's not telling me the whole truth but a conversation wouldn't be a bad idea I think.

That in itself doesn't mean the OP should pay for her nor does it mean that she can get away with not paying when she agreed in the first place.

I didn't suggest otherwise. All I was suggesting was that such an intense focus on the Annals of the Misdeeds of the Ex could mean that some of the ways that this woman is contributing to the relationship could be overlooked, including the fact that she's prepared to come on this holiday and pay. It's not all about money, but failing to notice that there are other aspects to a relationship will corrode it even if the OP does not intend that.

It doesn't sound as though she is avoiding paying.

It is off-putting I'm sure when a man is over-anxious about being taken advantage of but I can tell you that the only reason I'm like that at the moment is because it happened to me in a big way and to not be even a little bit wary would surely be foolish?

I don't see that has anything to do with your current partner at all. That is up to you. Obviously most people aren't like that, and plenty of women pay their own way. I'm sure if you actually have a job, you have met may other women who also have jobs, and you know this isn't the case. So its a strange and rather offensive thing to say, and really is more about your previous choice of partner than women in general.

I agree that going on holiday with someone else's kids wouldn't be at the to of my list of delights. I'm sure that inevitably she will end up looking after your children to some extent, because if there are four of you together, its hard to completely ignore two children.

Just how much extra is her share of this holiday costing, and is it possible to work out precisely what that is, or is she being asked to pay 1/4, or perhaps more than that, because the children cost less?

Oh for heaven's sake!

1. No, no you don't have good communication with this girlfriend yet. Because you don't know if she's paying what she has agreed to or not. You say "apparently" - which implies no trust it'll happen. And then you go on to say you may have to accept it'll be your treat. Which leads me onto 2.

1. Bloody hell! This is supposedly important to you. You have TOLD her to pay up. You clearly don't trust she will as you're thinking you may have to pay. And - this has me shouting at the internet - WHY are you just accepting that? It is fine to pay for a partner. It is not fine to agree to pay and not pay up.

If she doesn't pay now, she is a freeloader. So why are you saying you will have to accept it's your treat? You should be saying you will have to accept you're down a girlfriend and some cash.

It would be a total deal breaker for me if my boyfriend span me a line about paying, LIED to me.

So are you expecting her to pay or not? Make up your mind.

And if it did happen to you in a big way that you were taken advantage of financially, and it's a big enough deal to post here, why on earth are you now shrugging your shoulders about possibly having to treat her?