to expect child next door not to run, bang and scream all night and keep us all awake?

[Jaleh]

I'm at end of tether! We moved into our 2-bedroom flat 7 weeks ago, it's 12-months contract so can't move again just yet.
I run my business from home. DH gets up 6am for work but none of us can sleep much because selfish NDN don't control their child!

NDN have child he is about 2 or 3. He sleeps until middle of every day (blissful silence until then) but then he is screaming, shouting, tantruming and running stomping in their flat, noise doesn't stop until approx 3am. He is very very loud and walls are very very thin and floors are wooden so even gentle footsteps make loud echo. In daytime it's maddening because I'm trying to work. I can't hear clients on phone in my bedroom (furthest room from party-wall) and they say they can hear him down phone! I wear earplugs all day but they just muffle noise so it's still big problem to concentrate. Can't wear them at night as I need to hear my own DC if get up or call for me.

Me, DH and our DC are waking 5-6 times a night, often noise is so bad we can't return to sleep for hours. Just when it becomes quiet, he starts screaming and running again. Sounds like he is running wall-wall screaming at same time, slamming himself into party-wall. He also hits party-wall with toys and bangs on walls and floor all night.

When I knock on their door no-one ever answers, even when I know they are at home and I knock many times. So 2 weeks ago I wrote a polite message and put it under their door but nothing is different and they don't acknowledge message.

AIBU to think it is very very wrong to allow child to behave like this? My DC never banged on walls in night, never allowed to run about in night. It is a block of flats not a playground!! What can I do?

Well I don't have all the answers sadly.

Some kind of discussion needed. A bit of understanding on both sides. Am just a parent not a lawyer.

If I were you OP this is what I would be doing...

1. Diary of dates, times, types and duration of noises.
2. Ask friend/relative to stay over for a couple of nights to verify.

1. Contact council, ask for the noise team. They will advise you on what steps you and they can take. There is an order called an ABATEMENT NOTICE. It can cover a range of things ie noise, smell, other environmental impacts. Some noises are exempt eg baby crying and some times of day where total avoidance of sound is unworkable. However if this child's noise meets the criteria of the abatement notice then it can be enforced on your neighbours. This is why keeping the diary is important. It is your record of What and how this is impacting you.

You can also instruct the noise team (in fact they will offer this to you) to arrange mediation.

1. In the event you do not meet the criteria for an abatement notice, or because of the child's age the council are unwilling to help then try to find out their landlord. Your letting agent maybe able to help there. You may have an argument for your upstairs neighbour's landlord either:

* Installing soundproofing * Evicting tenant * Compensating you for loss of business or rental of an alternative place to work (flat not fit for purpose ie no soundproofing).

1. Early termination of your rental contract, on the basis that:

* The letting agents knew the upstairs neighbour have a noise issue * The letting agent knew you would be running a business from the flat

I would strongly advise starting the diary and contacting the council now. Keep records of all phone calls to various agencies (file notes of who spoke to and what about) and keep as much communication by email.

That's kind of what I think. I guess you would hope the parents would be reasonable as would op, though evidence is to the contrary as they ignored her note. Is there any kind of grant available for soundproofing?

For the record, my son has SN, and I still do not automatically assume that bad behaviour equals SN.

A refusal to engage with the affected neighbours isn't going to help though is it?

If the OP knew the child had SN it might make a difference to her outlook.

All she knows at the moment is that the child is a pain in the arse for her and her family and that the parents aren't interested in talking to her...

No one does Bogey. People suggest the possibility only if they see a behaviour they recognise as familiar or commonly found in SN. The possibility.

It's pretty hard to get a grant for soundproofing. Or even a diagnosis..IF there is SN.

And if there isn't. .I think there is a good chance the behaviour will pass. It could be night terror related as someone suggested which definitely would pass.

OP - go to CAB and get some advice about your tenancy agreement (though it would be a complete pain in the buttocks to move again after 2 months) I'm sure there is something that could be found to be in breach.
Your house is not a safe haven is it?

I'm sure there would be others who would wait until just after the night shift adult gets home, nods off ...........then hammers on their door like fury to wake them.

Though I wouldn't honestly

That would be petty and not achieve anything.

What bothers me about these threads is that people always chime in to say that the OP has a right to not be disturbed by noise.

But what of the NDNs? Let's assume there is a real SEN issue. What happened to their right to not be disturbed by noise? Did they invalidate it by having a child? Apparently not, because the OP has children and has retained that right somehow.

And of course the answer is that the NDN invalidated their right to not be disturbed by noise by choosing to have a child with SEN.

Only of course they didn't choose it. The NDN turned out to have exactly the same right to not be disturbed by noise as the OP or any of the rest of us - which is none at all in fact.

Shit happens to people all the time. They don't deserve it any more than the people it doesn't happen too. When someone else's shit briefly intrudes on your largely shit free life, your primary response should be to be incredibly grateful that you have a chance to walk away from it in the not too distant future.

NB: This also goes for people whose cinema experiences were just simply ruined by someone suffering tourettes etc.

The child may well have additional needs but there is no excuse for the parents not acknowledging the issue to their neighbours. What is stopping them from popping a note in saying they are aware and trying their best? This sort of thing helps neighbourly relations.

Yes agreed.

Discussion always best.

' When someone else's shit briefly intrudes on your largely shit free life, your primary response should be to be incredibly grateful that you have a chance to walk away from it in the not too distant future.'

Hmmm, I don't think it's a 'brief intrusion' in this case though. OP and family's lives are being affected a great deal... they can't sleep, she can't work properly, her kids can't concentrate at school. The occasional broken night would be acceptable, but being disturbed day and night for 7weeks takes its toll.

I agree life is not fair sometimes. Parents don't choose for child to have SEN, but when you choose to start a family you accept YOUR kids will impact your life, wake you, disturb you. You don't expect other people's kids to do this. Most parents minimise noise in flats. Your NDN shouldn't suffer and can't be expected to tolerate this level of disturbance every night. If the family has exhausted all options for controlling child's behaviour, it would be fairer to neighbours if they moved eg to a flat that either has a) better soundproofing or b) a property that doesn't have as many shared walls, eg an end/corner flat where child's bedroom could be away from shared wall. They could then restrict child from accessing shared wall at night.

I strongly believe everyone has a right to peace and quiet in their own home, and not have neighbour noise forced on them all the time. If it's your own child you can do something about it, if it's NDN's child you're powerless to improve things.

intrudes on your largely shit free life, your primary response should be to be incredibly grateful that you have a chance to walk away from it in the not too distant future

I think you're making a big assumption that other peoples' lives are relatively shit free and therefore they need to just stop moaning about constant disturbance.

I would find this type of noise intolerable.

I'd second NaiceVillageOfTheDammed helpful post but I'd also suggest taking a few videos so that you can show the Environmental Health Noise Abatement Officers. I would start immediately and would keep a record of everything (noise, letters, phone calls, names etc) that happens. I would also write another note to your neighbours. Keep a copy and make the letter polite but clear and to the point. Short letters are good. Something like >>>>

'Dear Neighbour,
I am writing to you to tell you that we are still being disturbed from nighttime noise coming from your flat. We wrote to you about this on the xxxx but as there has been no reduction in the noise levels we are writing again just in case the last letter was mislaid.
Typically we are [ describe how you are disturbed ]. The main cause of the noise appears to be [ describe what causes the noise ]
Please let us know if you would like to meet to discuss this problem.
We would very much appreciate your cooperation with this matter and hope that we can look forward to some nighttime peace and quiet.

If the walls are 'very, very thin' and the wooden floors make even 'gentle steps' echo, then a lot of the problem is in the ndn flat. You need to get your landlord to hear the noise you are experiencing and tell him/her that the flat you're living in isn't sound proofed enough. Complain to the letting agent-you can't live with that noise and keep on complaining.

There is no reason to keep unruly child awake until mum/dad gets home from work (or whomever, whatever) just so that they can deal with putting the child to sleep themselves.

I think it is pretty neglectful parenting to turn a childs day and night around just to fit a hypothetical work/out for drinks every night pattern.

I would just report the family to social services for neglect. If there is a SN issue, or neglect, SS might help the parents.

But I am pretty naive though.

that would be an awful thing to do. Good grief.

Would you like it if that happened to you?

Actually, I've re-read the op again and see that 'even gentle footsteps make a LOUD echo'. That really needs sorting out. Even without a child's noise, it's an unacceptable situation. I think the sound proofing needs addressing first before thinking about the ndn child. Presumably your ndns hear your footsteps as a loud echo too, so it's not good all round.

And yy to fanjo, reporting to ss for neglect would be a shitty and unfair course of action.

Quint that is an absolutely outrageous thing to do. A noisy child does not equal neglect. This kind of crap really bothers me. My ex neighbours decided to call social services when my severely disabled child used to tap on their fence and shout when jumping on the trampoline. Like you they decided to massage the facts a bit and said they were worried he was locked in the shed! It was utter bullshit. They didn't like my ds noise, we weren't naice enough as we rented and they all owned their houses. The OP's neighbours should reply and explain why their toddler is so noisy, but phoning social services is completely the wrong thing to do and will in fact make no difference other than to piss off the neighbours. I can't see how this will help situation.