...To think the mum who attacked bullies is RIGHT?

[candidkate]

Just read this story

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/i-know-what-wrong-im-8870532

This poor mum has witnessed her DD be bullied for years. 15 school kids had the balls to even show up at her home screaming abuse, threatening to kill her poor DD! She comes home furious and attacks one of them, punching the other who tried to break it up.

I don't condone violence full stop. But these were 14 year old hardly little kids who do not know better. I'm sorry but I'm putting my hands on you before you ever harm my child!

It was a daunting situation - she had even called the police and what did they do? Nothing. Kids are killing themselves while schools and police twiddle their thumbs. Enough it enough!

A secure unit is NOT the same as a prison

Well, as per my example, HM Prison Feltham they're managed by 'HM Prison Services' so I'd say the difference is negligible.

kate actually the only self righteous person on this thread is you. You're so determined in your righteousness, in fact, that you are completely disregarding anything that anyone who disagrees with you is saying.

I am talking about this case and this case only. We only have the mother's side of the story. What is so difficult about that, that you don't understand it?

I've agreed with loads of different people with different views. This is a very long thread but I encourage you to actually read my responses. I know its a one sided story but these are children what could they have been fighting about? We also must apply reason.
Of course its a news story of course we don't know all the facts.
However 15 children threatening to murder another child and vandalizing property stands alone. Even if it was in reaction to something.
This isnt about the kids so much its about the mum and her reaction.
AIBU to say that as a parent who really cares if your kid started it...or if they are "deserving" of being bullied / threatened ....when you fear for thier wellbeing you will act accordingly.

No-one is saying it's ok OP. No-one is saying just disregard their appalling behaviour because they're kids - people are just trying to point out that they are still very young people.

The age of criminal responsibility is 10. But you can't vote, legally have sex, smoke, drive or drink alcohol till much older ages. You can't be admitted to an adult MH unit till 18. You have to engage in some sort of education till is it 18 now? (was 16 in my day!). Same goes for living independently/claiming benefits, having cosmetic surgery etc etc.

Because it is recognised that younger adolescents have much more limited capacity to make serious decisions about their own lives before the ages of 16- 18 because they lack knowledge and experience and the mental reasoning of an adult.

I have worked with the kind of young people you're talking about. I KNOW what they can be capable of far too well and have been victim of it myself as have colleagues - serious physical and sexual violence. I don't work in that area of MH any more because of the serious toll it took on my health after a while.

BUT I never and will never think of or refer to any of the young people I worked with as 'demonic', 'evil', 'pieces of shit' or 'scum' like you do.

Because what they were in 90% plus of cases was damaged kids capable of terrible things. I will never think they shouldn't take responsibility for their terrible behaviour. I will never think they weren't/aren't dangerous but they were still damaged kids.

And there were more than a few that were very, very different adults at 18 compared to the kids they were a few years previously and for the better.

No-one on here thinks it's alright they behave in such violent and abusive ways. No-one is excusing it or minimising it. No-one thinks they're innocent or not dangerous.

But I don't think violence or abuse is ever the answer. It can't be because if we justify any act of violence or abuse we lose the fight against violence and abuse.

It all has to stop. And I know it won't and I know we're already losing the fight and I don't have the answer (would be a millionaire if I did!) but more violence and abuse in response to violence and abuse isn't the answer IMO.

MrsPeterQuill I do understand and have never ever once disregarded that point. I've also said millions of times that something horrid has happened, shouldnt have happened, and should always be a last resort. I've also said that of course steps should be taken via the school police and social services. No matter who is wrong....even if the alleged "victim" is a little bitch, these kids took things too far. You don't take your kid out of school for no reason...and as for the statement that school released...it speaks for itself.

Cannot judge this lady. My mum did the same with my bully in the 1980's. She was a lot older than me and was trying to attack me on my own driveway. My mum flipped. Its hard to comment unless you have been in that situation. This mother was desperate.

alwaysstaytoolong I understand and agree with many of your points.
Can I ask you something? And not in a confrontational way these arent sarcastic or rhetoric questions.

Why does the law stating an "adult" is 18+ resonate with so many posters?
Is someone less liable for their actions morally 30 seconds before their 18th birthday than 30 seconds afterwards?

Evil exists in all ages, all races, all religions and classes. Some kids are raised very well and just are sadistic. Furthermore why is it when someone is younger it's a "deeper issue", but add on a couple of years and they get to be scum? These very very same people?

If Ian Huntley had acted as a 15 year old instead of a fully grown man would he have been less of a despicable human being? Why can't adults have issues too? Are you suggesting that all our problems just vanish the second the clock strikes midnight and we are 18 and thus not deserving of "sympathy" and deeper understanding? Where do you draw the line?

And it's actually agreed universally that the brain doesn't finish developing until 25 years old.

I don't think the OP sounds at all unhinged. The girls who bullied deserve a punch in the face for being evil little bitches. Of course no-one can condone what the woman did, but I'm very glad she got a lenient sentence.

OP - I agree the 18 line is an arbitrary one and argued it myself when trying to get very ill 6 ft ++ violent young people admitted to adult MH units locally rather than be sent hundreds of miles away from their families to adolescent units which would be wholly unprepared to manage them.

But it is what it is and I am not arguing that someone magically becomes more responsible/culpable at midnight on their 18th birthday. Not at all.

But there is a big difference between 12/13/14 and 18.

And I don't believe in 'evil' people. Evil is a very nebulous concept at best based in Religious text and is far too subjective to carry any real meaning in my opinion. Same goes for 'good' people.

I can call actions 'good or evil' but not a WHOLE person. Because a person is made up of so many factors and influences. No one is 100% good or evil in my experience.

And I've worked with adult offenders too and had sympathy and understanding for them and their 'issues' too. It's not just under 18s I have compassion for.

And I've never thought of ANYONE as scum. It's just not the way I think.

okay always understood
May i ask - and i swear this is a genuine question - Was Hitler evil?

I am a bit loathe to judge based on one side of the facts. But I have been thinking about what I would do if one of my DC was being bullied and the school was not reacting. I certainly would not do nothing. But what I think I would be would be pursue the school and police much more rigorously, with threats of legal action, letters to anyone I could think of, constantly on their backs until they listened, even taking legal action if I needed to, keeping DC out of school in the meantime. I have every confidence that I could pursue this to a degree that would make the police take it seriously. But I appreciate not everyone has the ability (or cash once it gets to stage of legal action) to do that, so I guess I cannot really say what I would do if the tools available to me were different.

Fantastic posts by always. Just what I was trying to figure out how to articulate, but much better than I would have managed!

No I don't think Hitler was evil. I think it very likely he had a personality disorder and in that case it was a defect in his brain and not something that was in his control. And in no way am I offering any kind of excuse for wholly abhorrent acts and the Holocaust. Just offering a possible explanation. And also there were many, many hundreds of people behind Hitler putting his philosophies and plans into action.

It is not normal human behaviour to be able to cause harm to another person and not care or even get pleasure from it. It is not normal to have no empathy or compassion. It is not normal to never feel remorse or guilt or responsibility.

I have worked with psychopaths and NPDs. They were often very dangerous people but in a way they were not real people. They are missing a fundamental part of what makes us human - empathy. And they weren't choosing to be like that or wilfully doing it. They literally did not understand it because it didn't exist for them.

And for that reason I have compassion. I can utterly reject their behaviour and the pain they inflict but still have compassion.

Because they're not whole people. They're like holograms - it looks like a person but when you look from the right angle there's nothing really there. They never know true happiness or love because they are incapable of it, they experience fleeting pleasure from things (often damaging other people) but there's no depth of emotion other than rage. And all the people on here talking about the rage they would feel if their child was hurt will know that rage is not a pleasant emotion and wouldn't want to feel it for the majority of their lives.

They live a half - life in my opinion. And I have compassion for that while never minimising their actions.

I believe there are evil people in the world just as there are good ones. Ian Brady, Ian Huntley, Myra Hindley to name just a few. There is no other way to describe them.

This thread depresses me.

I hate to say it but I'm going to be one of those old glimmer Mumsnettters who says 'Mumsnet has changed'.

Too much frothing and Facebook platitudes.

There are posters falling over themselves to say these 'bitches' deserved to be beaten up when we don't even know the whole story. No-one on this thread knows all sides or all individuals or all events or all the history.

But no matter it seems, 'little bitches' like this need a slapping to learn a lesson.

always you sound very well informed and write very compassionately. And indeed seem to have a lot of compassion for the people you work with.

2 sides every story indeed.

There was CCTV footage of the incident where the daughter was 'beaten to a pulp'. Having viewed the footage the school decided that both girls were at fault and deserved the same punishment, and the incident only involved the daughter and 1 other girl.

alwaysstaytoolong I agree - do you feel as though this is more important han self defense though?

No OP. But I can't 'approve' one act of violence over any other because it's a very slippery slope that I don't want to go down.

And as many have said on this thread, the case in question isn't one of immediate self - defence in the heat of the moment while being physically attacked.

The law DOES defend self defence in those situations. After I'd been physically attacked in a very unwell persons house and their neighbours heard me screaming and called the Police - The Police afterwards told me that I could have done anything physically violent to him to defend myself and get away but that is totally against my nature as a person and as a HCP. BUT the Police and law would have been on my side.

The case we're talking about was NOT self defence - hence the Mum receiving a suspended sentence and a criminal record.

I'm not condemning her. I have compassion for her but she was not defending herself or her child from immediate harm - she ran after someone and assaulted them.

That is not self- defence. It is assault and the criminal justice system had NO other way of dealing with the incident because regardless of the background - it was one person pursuing another person and punching them.

It's not disregarding her or her daughters experience - it is law.

I just wonder out of all this if the 2 girls who were assaulted got any kind of punishment off their parents when they found out what their precious darlings had been doing. Their daughters were vile bully's who acted atrociously towards that woman's daughter. I'd love to know their thoughts were on that.

Have to say if any of my kids had been outside a house threatening the occupants i would be ashamed! Think u should sue the school for neglect.

always you can't do 'anything' violent' you can use reasonable force

I can understand 2 sides 2 every story BUT at that moment in time it was her daughter being threatened it was her house they were standing outside of it was herself and her dcs that were afraid.
I would have done the same to protect my children and my property

Yes Alice - you're right and that's what the Police said but they did give me 'top tips' of what would be more likely to stop someone during an attack and they seemed very violent to me!.

Well now you're asking the right questions, Tulip.

What did the parents of these girls do?

Were they shocked, furious, did they come down like a ton of bricks on their daughters (if they did do everything the mother and people on this thread claim)?

Did they sit them down and explain what impact this behaviour would have on others? Why bullying is so wrong and damaging?

Did they punish them, ground them, get them to do volunteer work in the community? Get them to write letters to their victims?

Or did they say 'You stupid bitch' and slap them about the head?

Or say 'It's alright princess, she deserved it, fuck 'em stupid cows' we'll get all the money we can out of them?

Parents are absolutely 100% key here and this is my point all along.

The girls are children and most if not all of their behaviour will be born out of their home life, good and bad. Children learn from us - our attitudes and actions. Plus if children are subject to neglect or witness violence - what do you think they learn from that, how do you think they act themselves?

This whole issue is about us as parents looking after our own and bringing up good people. Talking about punishing, hitting and locking up children is completely arse over tit! That is not what people should be concentrating on here - 'they are nearly adults (WTF????) and can be punched and attacked as they are violent little bitches who need to be taught a lesson'

NO NO NO.

As I and others have said repeatedly, you treat and punish children as adults and you are on a very dangerous, depressing slippery slope.