To ignore the upstairs neighbour banging on his floor about crying baby

[MrsHende]

Baby hates getting dressed and usually screams her way through the 5-6 minute process. Twice our upstairs neighbours has banged on their floor, presumably because of the noise. Both times were after 7.30 and before 8am, once this morning and once last week, on a week day.

Who IBU?

(My mum thinks I should change the baby in a different room, possibly the best solution for everyone's blood pressure!)

RocketInMyPocket

An apology doesn't help the pain; the acknowledgement that the parent has recognised that you're in serious distress does help, it helps in the sense that they're not making you feel like a freak because their little bundle of joy is an instrument of torture (to someone like me).

Its one of those cases where the apology doesn't fix the problem, but it does change how you react in the aftermath - for me at least. Having to leave restaurants/cafes/school functions because I'm in pain is bad enough, being glared at/sneered at/harangued for 'making a parent feel bad', all for something which is beyond my control, has at times been upsetting for me, embarrassing for people with me and humiliating for my dc.

I appreciate your points and agree upbringing has an impact on choices we make, but I'm confused as to why you think someone from a deprived background does not have the same opportunities to study and choose a profession?
In UK everyone has free education until 18, and most people take out a student loan to go to uni. Careers advice and support is provided to all young people free of charge.

Rizzo... no my parents did not go to prison, suffer mental illness or use drugs, but DH comes from a very deprived background. Despite his environment and lack of role models he studied hard at school and at 17 joined the army as a way out. After 3 years service he took A-levels and went to uni, supporting himself through 3 degrees by taking any job he could get.
This is why I find it hard to comprehend how ppl can blame their upbringing for their lack of motivation, lack of education, lack of sensible choices. If you want a better life you have to make it happen and have a long-term plan.

In contrast to DH my life has been sheltered but I'm not from 'old money' as Rizzo implied. My parents are self-made ppl who were not born privileged (my mum's side of family were immigrants who came to UK with nothing, lived in poverty, but my grandma raised all 4 of her children with a strong work ethic; all 4 entered professions and did well despite a difficult start in life).

ThatCucking... yes I agree we did have a choice to move into a flat with paper-thin walls. We had lived in this type of flat before and had no problems. We expected some level of normal noise eg voices, footsteps, laughter, music, the odd party, children playing, occasional tantrums... what we didn't expect was noise so loud it woke us up every 2-hours and prevented us studying.
Marynary...When the noise is so loud you have to shout over it to have a conversation in your own flat, 'changing the way you think' does not help.

Unfortunately the letting agent didn't have info about the neighbours and this was before the days of Zoopla where you can look up 'neighbour stats'.
Maybe the mother truly had no choice about where she lived and the flat was likely provided to her by council, but she did have a choice about having 3 kids there! Even if 1 was unplanned, to have 3 in that environment (and as a single parent with no job) was IMO totally selfish and irresponsible.

Andro
That sounds absolutely horrendous, so you have my complete sympathy!!

In your situation, I think there would definitely need to be consideration, but it's obviously difficult when it's a crying baby, and not much the parents can do about it. (Other than apologise, which as you said is nice, but won't actually stop you feeling pain and discomfort)

It's a tough one, I think give and take and consideration of people's situations is definitely needed..

I'm quite shocked tbh, I'd have thought that something so obviously affecting your quality of life would make you eligible for some kind of funding, free sound proofing or something

I was very lucky with my neighbours when DD was a baby and I lived in a ground floor flat. She was very colicky, with reflux, and had as of then undiagnosed cows milk allergy.Upstairs had 3 kids of their own, so noise from kids didn't bother either of us, and next door flat was an elderly man, I would say through half opened bleary eyes 'Sorry if you were woke up last night, she's not been well' and he would lie and say he didn't hear anything.

My neighbour after that though, was a self entitled prick, and constantly complained about everything.
I had a trampoline in the garden, and when they would bounce on it (in the daytime) and run around playing and making normal kids-in-the-garden noise, he would flip.
Made me really anxious, and I felt like DCs couldn't enjoy playing in their own garden, as his head was always poking up, telling them to be quiet. He would come and knock at the door and complain about everything, but only when DPs car wasn't parked outside
When I moved to my current house, it was a few days before I saw the next door neighbour, and I said sorry if you have heard the kids running around shouting, they've been a bit over excited about the move, new bedrooms new garden etc

Neighbour looked genuinely baffled and said 'I've literally only just realised you have littluns, I haven't heard a peep'

Theboat
A school friend of mines mother was an alcoholic.
Friend was eldest of 5 kids, couldn't hang around with us after school, as she had to look after the younger ones when mum went awol.
Left school at 16, got a job in Sainsburys and spent all her wages filling up the cupboards and buying siblings uniform, school shoes etc. as her mother spent all her dole money on booze
She was really clever too, could have easily went to college etc.

A boy at school got done at 14 for robbing an off licence with a knife. He did it so his 12 year old brother could have dinner money. Not justifying this of course, but utterly heartbreaking to hear a 14 year old say it's his responsibility to bring up his 12 year old brother.

You have been very fortunate, accept it's due to your circumstances, others are not so lucky

Rocket, re why an apology helps... I agree it doesn't solve the issue but it DOES make the neighbour feel understood and respected, which in turn breeds tolerance. If you treat their distress as valid they'll feel warmer to you and the baby. Asking if there are certain times/rooms where the disturbance is worse can help you work together to improve things, and even if you can't change anything at least they know you listened to their concerns and tried to help.

Re children playing noisily in garden, we had this problem too, our neighbour (in current house) complained my DC were screaming too much in garden. And she had a point! I hadn't realised it was upsetting anyone (in old house both sides had kids too) but we made choice to move to an area with fewer families. Other ppl want to enjoy their gardens, patios and summerhouses too. And sound carries inside of it's warm and they have windows open.
We now have a 'no shouting, no screaming rule' for the garden, if DC break it they get a warning, if they break it twice they have to come inside for 30mins timeout. If they need to let off steam we go to the park or woods, where they can make all the noise they like. In return neighbours are tolerant when we have a kids party or get paddling-pool out (we warn them in advance if likely to be lots of noise).

I don't think a neighbour is necessarily in wrong for complaining about noise in garden, there's no need for kids to spoil the peace for everyone else. A bit of mutual consideration goes a long way.

Rocket... the cases you described are very sad and I agree they had few opportunities, but I do think cases like this are exception rather than the norm. I know plenty of people who come from disadvantaged backgrounds who went on to develop successful careers (due to free education, student loans and determination rather than luck).

I agree tolerance breeds tolerance.
I wouldn't feel bad for the bloke if I were you!
I absolutely told the kids not to be too noisy, just because I didn't want him poking his bloody head up but felt VERY resentful doing so.. This bloke would do it for loud laughter though. His wife was lovely though, funnily enough.
Although tbf my resentment may have stemmed from his way of going about it, and as I said would bang on my door and shout at me about being too noisy The irony of that wasn't lost on me yet only when he knew I was in the house alone. He was a prick

Marynary...When the noise is so loud you have to shout over it to have a conversation in your own flat, 'changing the way you think' does not help.

Nobody would argue that if the noise is constantly so loud that you have to shout to have a conversation then the noise level is unreasonable. However, your posts demonstrate that you have a problem which much less intrusive noise than this and a lot of your problems with baby/child noise are really down to your attitude. Having read some of your posts I actually feel a bit sorry for your children because you sound quite stifling.

theboat a few people will come out of a stressful and difficult upbringing more determined to turn their life around, and will go on to do very well. However, sadly it is actually these people that are the exception to the norm. You sound very ignorant in your views.
There are so many more problems that come with a tough upbringing than just 'having a free education' and 'careers advisors'. The cases rocket gave examples of are far too common a story, they're not one off sob stories. Your upbringing isn't an excuse for the rest of your life, but it can have a severe impact on it, and on a persons mental health, and the solution isn't as easy as 'just go to college'.
In the case of your single parent neighbour, do you actually know anything about her life or are your judgements on her made from seeing her a few times having a fag? Do you know anything about what she might have gone through or what might have led her to be in the situation she was in?
Your comments about her say far more about you than they do about her.
The world isn't black and white, and people on benefits with kids aren't 'bad', people with jobs and detached houses aren't 'good'. Everyone has a back story.
You can't back peddle and say you didn't have as much of a choice because Zoopla didn't tell you what the neighbours were like. She had a choice to have kids there (in your opinion), and by your own admission you had a choice to live there. Stop complaining.
As to the kids in the garden comments, don't the kids have as much right to enjoy their garden as their neighbours do? If it's all about give and take, then both should be able to enjoy their garden maybe at different times? Otherwise it's just one sided to the neighbours benefit and simply not fair. Kids have a right to exist and to be kids. Your neighbours are being pretty selfish IMO.

Theboat I agree the cases I stated aren't the norm at all, but just that it unfortunately does happen, and you never know how people come to be in the situations they're in.

My DSis teaches English in a pretty poor area, she said she's astonished by the number of kids who are clearly intelligent enough to go to uni, yet are dissuaded by parents who don't want them to 'get ideas above their station' and such like.

It's an alien concept to me as I always think it's natural for parents to want their kids to have better and achieve more than they did.
I certainly want that for my DC!

Unfortunately not all parents feel this way, and they breed people with such low self esteem that they feel unable to 'go it alone' so to speak.
It's awful, and to me, completely unnatural to feel like that towards your own kids, but apparently it's quite common there...

Rocket, your neighbour sounds like a real bully! He should have had a polite word with you if noise was a genuine issue, not shout or behave aggressively.

Marynary, why do you think I'm 'stifling' my children? Having respect for other ppl is something all children need to learn. Good manners include knowing when it's appropriate to scream and shout (eg park/beach/playground/countryside) and when they need to play more quietly.

Thecucking
You're absolutely right, these are definitely not one offs.
When I agreed with Theboat about it not at all being the norm, I meant that as a whole, obviously most parents are NOT alcoholics, neglectful abusive.
However, while it's not the norm by any means, it's sadly not at all unusual either.

They are just two examples.
I sadly know of a few more.

A friend I met after having DC refuses to go to work. Most people would think she's lazy, but it's actually because she doesn't trust anybody with her DC, after being repeatedly abused after her own mother left her with any tom dick or harry.
She's the loveliest girl you could meet, but understandably pretty messed up.

You NEVER know what's gone on behind closed doors, or WHY people have ended up where they have.

He was definitely a bully, so glad I've moved now, and don't have to deal with it anymore!!

Marynary, why do you think I'm 'stifling' my children? Having respect for other ppl is something all children need to learn. Good manners include knowing when it's appropriate to scream and shout (eg park/beach/playground/countryside) and when they need to play more quietly.

Your posts just give that impression as you seem to be constantly worrying about whether your children are making too much noise, telling them to be quiet and clearly have a low tolerance for any sound that a baby/child might make.

My children have respect for other people (I think) and nobody has ever complained about too much noise and yet I don't constantly tell them to be quiet or apologise for them as you seem to.. Yes, children need to learn when it is appropriate to scream and shout but they do also have the right to enjoy the garden and outside space just like everyone else. A neighbours desire for silence doesn't trump everything else.

'As to the kids in the garden comments, don't the kids have as much right to enjoy their garden as their neighbours'

Yes of course they do. And kids are perfectly capable of enjoying their garden without screaming and shouting. Whereas for childless neighbours, I imagine it's hard to enjoy your garden at all if there's screeching and yelling from next door every day. I don't like it when my neighbour uses his chainsaw and noisy wood-shredding machine but I tolerate it. If he used it every day after work I wouldn't be happy!

I must admit I enjoy my garden more when my DC are playing quietly. (They still have fun running around, climbing trees, making dens etc, and they still call out to each other, talk and laugh loudly. But screaming or yelling from one end of garden to the other is just unnecessary.) I like to listen to the birdsong, have a peaceful cup of tea, read, daydream, unwind after work. Gardens are full of sensory pleasures and children (as well as adults) can appreciate these more if not making a racket.

If your garden has always been your tranquil sanctuary, and a family with kids move in and shatter the peace every day, I can understand how annoying it must be. Why should I have any right to spoil my neighbours' relaxation time? Should they have to wear earplugs outdoors?
I agree it would be good if we could use gardens at different times or have a 'noisy play' period too but it reality most people work, so evenings and weekends are when everyone wants to be outside. I think the only solution that suits everyone is teaching our children how to enjoy garden without being excessively noisy.

I disagree totally that everyone has the same opportunities and its their own fault if they don't grab them.

There are many, many children who don't get GCSEs because they're at home looking after younger siblings. Or because they're already taking drugs and hanging out in gangs. Or because they have behavioural issues that aren't being managed properly because the only school in their shitty area is over-stretched and under-funded. So they think 'fuck it'; they fail at school from and early age, their self esteem is affected, they don't bother, don't expect to succeed.

It's hard to get into college with no GCSEs. And even if they do manage to scrape maths and English and get a place, it's hard to get to college if you live miles away and can't afford bus fare. If your mum's struggling on fuck all, you're going to feel guilty. Or she might tell you to jack college in.

Then what? Get a job? With no qualifications? Unlikely.

The picture I'm painting above is not a rare exception. It's very, very common. Too common unfortunately. There are more children living below the poverty line in this country now than there have been since the end of the war.

You wanna talk about luck? How about those odds being stacked against you?

And then if you add racial factors into the mix, it just gets even harder. You're a young black male with little education, a single mother on benefits and the local gang on your estate are breathing down your neck? Just go to college!!!

Honestly, I have never, ever said this before either, online or in real life, but some people on here need to check their privilege.

I don't like it when my neighbour uses his chainsaw and noisy wood-shredding machine but I tolerate it.

If you can tolerate that every now and then, why can't your neighbours tolerate your kids playing in the garden for a couple of hours on a Saturday morning? It doesn't have to be all day, everyday. You could say to the neighbours that the kids are going to play in the garden in the morning, and then you'll take them in for lunch and take them out for the afternoon so the garden can be all theirs. I agree with marynary I think you are stifling your kids. Tell them to be quieter by all means, but there's no reason why they have to be silent in their own garden.
I'm planning on bringing my kids up to be respectful and considerate to others, but you don't have to be the noise police to do that. I'm going to teach them that they are not the centre of the universe and other people like quiet time, so they cant be loud and do as they please all the time, but I'm going to allow them to be normal kids and have a bit of fun on the weekend. Yours are going to grow up thinking they are nothing but a nuisance to everyone around them.

rocket and rizzo I totally agree with you both. Rocket, I get what you were saying, just wanted to point out that yours are only two examples and like you say there are far more different circumstances that make moving up in life a struggle, and these occurrences are anything but rare.

I do hear your comments about lack of equal opportunities and it does make me think more deeply about these issues. I guess it's an ongoing social problem reinforced over generations.
But I still think UK provides more opportunities than most countries, and that it's also up to parents to raise their kids well and support them in education. If more people planned families responsibly (eg getting a job, gathering resources and life-skills before having kids), there'd be less children stuck in bad schools with poor prospects and demotivated parents. I don't think 'tolerance' of the problem is the answer as the cycle gets reinforced.

Rocket I understand what you mean about parental attitudes and low self-esteem holding ppl back. DH's parents pulled him out of school at 16 and forced him to get a job to 'earn his keep'. They had no books in the house, were intolerant of him studying and mocked him for thinking 'above his station'. He joined the army as a way of escaping. I think his anger towards them drove him to prove himself, but I appreciate many ppl crack under that kind of pressure.

ThatCucking, you're right I don't know the back-story of the woman in the flat. But I still think it was very irresponsible to have another baby when she clearly had no means to support the first 2 and seemed to have no control over them at all. Free contraception is readily available. My judgement of her was based on what I observed, from the way she swore and yelled at her kids to the chain-smoking, lack of discipline, lack of bedtimes for the older 2 and the complete disregard she had for others in the building.

I don't think anyone should ever have to 'justify' their reasons for having a child. Especially not to someone who's judging them for not being better off.

Theboat is right to judge.

I know I should put on my tin hat at saying that but a chain smoking mother, with clearly no idea of how to be a parent has yet another child. State supports. I am on another thread that is saying that benefits are a lifestyle choice. For some they are... Others on the thread are claiming that they need edcuation and support, another said we should still pay and throw money at people who just make the same daft decisions again and again.

Why do some people have kids with no means of supporting them. Because they can.. they will get more money and support the more they have, they will not have worked and after a couple of children it wont be worth their while.

My Mum works in a inner London school. She constantly sees 5 year olds being let down by their parent who wont step up to the responsibility of having had a child. Lazy, feckless parenting by people who really dont give a toss - they have their own issues.

I hope there is a solution to this but clearly opportunities like free education, support, training and even birth control etc goes completely by them. We can wring our hands yet nothing seems to be working. We have one of the highest teen birth rates in the EU. WHY?

Fucking hell. A life on benefits is not much of a choice though is it really?

People talk about being on benefits as if you get given a free castle with a flat screen. It's pretty grim really. Not a 'choice' you'd make if you had any viable options.

If living on benefits is the best choice people can make out of a range of shitty options then I'm certainly not going to begrudge them my contribution.

As what's the alternative to supporting mothers with young children on benefits? Not supporting them? It wouldn't necessarily mean fewer births. But it would mean more children living in poverty.

I'll never forget reading an article about the Victorian slums in London where infanticide was really common in families of multiple children all sharing one attic room. An new baby came along; another mouth to feed...sometimes the situation was so desperate that there was no other solution.

Utterly heartbreaking. I'd happily pay taxes towards a better society where that sort of horror doesn't have to be endured.

Also, I think rather than just feeling a blanket anger towards these types of people, bear in mind a lot of the 'I'm on benefits and I don't care' is bravado.
The minute few who genuinely do believe it don't really deserve your anger either tbf.
How desperately sad that some people perceive that as the pinnacle of living?
Nobody on benefits has a life to envy really

Hillingdon, I agree with you.

ThatCucking, when we first moved here I tried letting them be noisy in garden for very short periods only, but found they got overexcited and kept forgetting when 'noisy time' was over. I don't like having to tell them to be quiet every 10mins. I find it more effective to have a single consistent rule for garden (no screaming/shouting) so they associate the garden with this behaviour. We do break the rule for parties and paddling-pool (impossible to stop them shrieking when spraying each other with hosepipe) so in summer we probably have a 'noisy garden day' once a fortnight. We always warn neighbours by popping round or putting a card through their door. They usually retreat indoors and shut their windows, I do feel guilty as their garden is their pride and joy and they work on it all day in good weather. Luckily we have a park nearby so I often take DC there instead.

I do feel bad about noise, because we moved to an area with few families. In previous house all neighbours' children played noisily in gardens so we never thought to tell ours to be quiet, but here I feel we need to be respectful of the norm.