To be truly scared my boys wont be that close to me when they grow up.

[ssd]

the opening lines of todays blog of the day

"Now that I don't know how she doesn't do it is a mother herself, she truly appreciates the friendship and understanding that can exist between mother and daughter"

I dont have girls, I have boys. I love them with all my heart. I adore them. I dont understand their passion for their sport or the team they love and share with dh. I watch them play every week and still have no idea what its all about. But I do it as it makes them happy to see me and thats all I'm about.

BUT I have seen what my brother was like with my mum. He is a good man but mum came way down his list of priorities. He often didnt visit for years at a time.

It utterly terrifies me to think this may be my future. I took care of mum till she died, I shudder to think of her life if I hadnt lived 20 mins away and seen her every week.

Please god, dont let me be my mum without me.

A lovely post , HairyHanded, just enjoy the present.
The one thing that haunts me on this thread is that poor 5 yr old whose mother is detaching because 'he will leave her' -so sad.

Thanks, Mehit, I have enjoyed yours too.

I hope the mother of that 5yo is just having a bad day today, and truly cherishes that boy in real life.

Hairy- yes that was a great post. Puts me in mind of a quote I once came across. " you don't own your children, you just borrow them" .

(I don't like the blush emoticon - looks sad!)

I hope I'm not overstepping the mark here, I know everyone has a different situation and no one can speak for everyone. But I feel unless you have some experience of certain situations, you cant imagine what its like...I'm meaning when your parents get old and need help. My mum spent her life being very independent and asked for nothing, she always said "when I get old give me a pill!!" She never ever wanted to be a burden. And I feel the same, and I see this written over and over in this thread, none of us want to hold our kids back, we dont want them to feel they have to visit when they dont have the time, we dont want their life to be curtailed at all due to our needs.....then time changes everything, we get old and needy in a way we swore we'd never do. And I dont mean needy like demanding visits or crying down the phone about our loneliness. I mean needy in having no food in the fridge as we cant get out to the shops, our personnel hygiene slipping and we dont even notice, our doctor appts going missed as we forget, our finances going to pot as we cant keep up with it....I just mean a million ways that our lives change as we get old and we dont even notice. My mum used to say "old age doesn't come alone" and she was spot on.

And here is my experience, a daughter can be more aware and sympathetic to these changes than a man can, in the way a woman often notices things needing done in the house that a man misses, not because he is stupid or dumb or anything, just he doesn't seem wired to notice the loo rolls have run out, the kids need new school shorts, the tumble drier stopped working last week. Forgive me if none of your men are like this but that's what I've noticed.

And I know I'm widely and naively generalising here too much, but that's my one personnel experience.

Anyway sorry for the long winded post, am just hoping my op is a bit clearer now, I took care of my mum till she died and unless you have seen first hand how a proud, independent person slowly deteriorates through time and becomes a person who needs a bit of care and attention then its hard to imagine how this ever happens.

My experience defines my normality, which is that boys stay just as close to their mothers.

My husband calls his mother daily, sees her at least once a week, and they are very close.

My dad was the same when his mother was alive.

My brother sees my mother once a week, calls or texts her most days, while I live 3000 miles away.

I don't know if it makes a difference, but my husband is Jewish, my father Italian, and I know that both groups have a reputation for doting on their mothers. I can only hope that my two boys follow a similar path.

My brother has given up his life to live with my Mum with dementia for the past six years. She is doubly incontinent. It s hard for him.
If you already believe that your boys will give up n you don't be surprised if they live up to that.

OH is one of 5 sons. All have left home but none have left home town. MIL often tells me how lucky she is because as well as her sons she has gained 'daughters' too... and her beautiful grandchildren.

Its a lovely way to look at things? She is fab is my MIL.

and I dont want to own my children, I want them to have their own minds and thoughts and dreams, thats the best thing I can give them.

my mum died feeling loved, her care worker told me that, and I know she got that love from me, not from my siblings. she said once that my db wouldnt know if she was alive or dead.

I havent got a ssd when I get old and I'm scared my boys will be like my db...he was loved and cared for and still grew up like this.

sorry am rambling now.

I'm sure your boys will be there for you,

Is old age, fraility and illness round the corner for you, OP? If not, stop wasting time, energy and emotions worrying about it. And if it is, just because your sons might not be there wiping your bum, doesn't mean they don't love you. I actively do not want that for my DC.

Before I married him, my DH lived with a male friend. The toilet roll never ran out. They managed to buy shorts for themselves as and when they needed them, and afaik, the tumble drier was always functioning.

hairy, its round the corner for us all, unless we die young.

I take it your parents are fit and healthy?

Looking at the relationships around me I really feel it's the bond you cultivate with your son as a child that really determind how close he will be along with his father and other males setting good examples.

My In-laws have 3 boys, they fully admit they were not affectionate parents to the oldest two and just were very much authoritarian in their approach with them.
Their youngest, born much later, they took a different approach especially my MIL much more affectionate etc. He is the only one that still has a close relationship with her. At least every other month he makes the 600 mile drive to see her and calls her often.

My DH on the other hand doesn't, he hasn't visited in years and rarely calls despite liking his parents it just doesn't occure to him.
We would visit and I would try and encourage him more but the only time we can really visit is Xmas and the last time we planned to go they dis-invited us because they got a better offer from friends. Friends that live in the same town that they see every week over their son they hadn't seen in two years at is point.
If he isn't a priority in their lives they can't really expect my DH to view his mother as a priority in his life.

By around the corner, I meant imminent - next couple of years. And even if so, why worry - it won't change anything. Be the best parent you can to them now, for their sake, not for any hope of return or reward, and that is all we can do.

I don't know - I am NC with them.

I don't agree about things being hardwired, op but I think I know where you're coming from. I've seen old age close up plus I'm not that far off it myself and it's bloody scary. Most of us have our heads in the sand about it.

I can't imagine anyone actually wants to rely on a child for basic care but if you live long enough - and a lot of us will - then there's a good chance that you'll end up dependent on someone. And if family or friends don't step up then who exactly will? The reality is that, unless you have money to throw at the problem then you're in the shit. And I mean that literally.

I really think you need to stop worrying about it- looking after people in old age has nothing to do with gender.
My male cousin looked after his mother until she died, then he had her sister until she died. He was then the main carer for my mother so I was relived when she moved nearer one of us because he was very good natured ,but it wasn't fair. She is now well over 90 yrs and lives near my brother- he does the day to day stuff. I am too far away.
My BIL looks after his parents- both in their 90s. They have no DDs.
I have plenty of experience of old age and if I can't manage I am certainly not having my children caring for me. After this thread I shall write it down- so there is no misunderstanding.

My mum said exactly the same things to us and we said 'ok'. But then we realised the alternative meant a carer turning up to put her to bed at 7.00pm.

But I disagree that it's down to gender - my brother probably did more than I did because he lived nearer.

OP, how do you think childless people deal with old age? If your mother hadn't had you, and your siblings had remained uninvolved, she would have had some form of paid-for care. Which might not have been ideal, but then neither is being cared for by children, always. My mother, despite having two richer siblings with fewer dependants, looked after her elderly mother for years in our tiny, overcrowded house, and it was awful - my sister and I entered our teens sharing a bed with an elderly incontinent woman who was never very nice to us, and then my father spent three years sleeping on the sofa while my mother shared a bed with her - and she still ended up in a home.

I can see that looking after your mother as she declined has had a traumatising impact on you, and I'm sorry. But I don't think fixating on something that is years off, if it happens - you could be hit by the proverbial boys - is going to do anything other than make you miserable and have a negative impact on your rel with your sons.

It already sounds as if you half-resent them in advance because you don't think they are going to look after you the way your imaginary daughter would, in your fantasy. If she lived down the road rather than in Rio or Cape Town or Athens. If she didn't work 80 hour weeks with a lengthy commute. If she wasn't a single mother with a profoundly disabled child. If she didn't have a serious disability herself. If she behaved like you did towards your mother, which is the basis for your fantasy.

You'll think I'm being brutal, but I think it might help to recognise that your caring daughter is a fantasy. If your daughter was real, and your relationship was as problematic as real relationships are, and she decided to go and live in Alaska, would you be as scared and resentful as you are at the future as you imagine it with your sons?

And I do think you have some essentialist ideas about gender. I am careerist. I work long hours at a job that is consumingly important to me, as does my husband, and I certainly am not more prone to noting missing toilet paper or malfunctioning appliances than he is. The house could go to hell in a handcart before I would notice in a busy period. I am a real woman, not a fantasy daughter. I'm sure other women function differently, but I'm just pointing out that your daughter might be like me, living her entire adult life in a different country, completely undomestic, and, although I have a warm relationship with my mother and we see each other as often as can be arranged, I have - and nor do my two sisters - no plans to move to my home country again.

tapwater, I hear what you are saying and I do accept I am generalising here re gender.

but the reality of dealing with old age is very real to me.

you saying my mother would have to have had some form of paid for care is the crux of the matter, the elderly parents section on here is full of posters banging their heads off the wall as organising and actually getting paid for care is next to impossible if you dont have the money to pay for it.

anyway, I appreciate all the advice and stories of the great men out there, I'm sure my boys wont be like my db, they are great kids.

But do you really want that for your children? I don't. If I get frail, become an invalid, need help, I do not want my children to curtail their adventures to come and do boring duties with their old ma. Off, kids, go see the world, go see to your spouses and your own young children. I didn't have kids so they could comfort me in my old age. I'm not saying you did, but it didn't even factor for me, didn't even cross my mind that any part of having them would mean someone to rely on when I am ancient. I'm living as full and adventurous a life as I can now, so that when my time comes, or I can no longer move, I will be content to just go.
I certainly won't waste a second worrying about the what ifs now.

I haven't read the whole thread but I understand your fears ssd. I also have sons. It's got easier as they've got older as I'm naturally letting them go as they prepare for university. A few years ago the thought that I wouldn't be close to them in the future would have upset me greatly. Neither is that demonstrative with love. I get the odd hug and kiss. If I had a girl I wouldn't automatically assume the relationship would be closer though. I fully expect my DSs to go out into the world and leave the city I'm in. I wouldn't want it any other way. I don't expect them to look after me in my old age, I don't think either is cut out to do any personal care. Without a shadow of a doubt though I know they will make sure I'm looked after properly in a care home. After seeing a horrific clip on the news recently about old age abuse my eldest said to me don't worry mum I will make sure that never happens to you. I aim to get on with whoever he chooses to spend his life with. I'll offer practical help with their kids if they have any if they want or need it. I don't feel I'll be jealous of them spending more time with her family, it might not happen anyway unless they live in her home city. The thought of letting them go gets easier as they get older. Make sure you have a life after they've gone though.

I can't understand thinking that you have a family to look after you in your old age. I had mine for purely selfish reasons- I wanted children. I had a wonderful time bringing them up, I love their company now and love my freedom. I am horrified by the thought they might feel they have to look after me- I am not having it- it is not what I want for them.

I noticed on Facebook that all the posts from families out in restaurants for Mother's Day were taking out the wife's mum (with obviously husband there with his MIL). I didn't see one post where the lunch out was with the husbands mum.
Made me very sad.

I wouldn't take FB as indication of anything. I don't have FB friends who post that sort of thing but in personal experience I would say it was dependant on geography.