To get the Dad of the girl DS bit to tell him off?

[RaisinBread]

Name change as this is probably quite obvious who I am with the details that will follow but have been on MN for 7 years.

I'm at my whits end with DS (age 7) and I have no idea how to punish him for this behaviour. Backstory-

There is a new girl in his class he has a small class of just over 20 with about 15 boys. Now for the second time in just over two weeks he has been violent towards this girl. The first time I was pulled over at collection because the new girl, lets call her Polly had shoved ds (Polly denies this) So Ds bit her hand. He has never bit anyone before in his life. After the incident the teacher said he had a panic attack and needed a lot of calming down. I suspect I think he knew he had done something horrendous and didn't know how to cope with it. The teacher told me that Polly's Dad was extremely angry.

When we got home I talked through why it was wrong, talked through reversed situations asked how would have felt had it been him that had been bit, if someone else had bit his little sister or me etc. etc. We talked through what would have been the right decision after the shove (telling a teacher). He was told that the behaviour was absolutely unacceptable and that I was very angry and upset. He was then sent up to his room until dinner, made a sorry card for Polly and then had a bath and was told to go to bed. I didn't scream or shout at him just had stern words and made it clear that it was to never happen again.

Now ever since the biting Polly's Dad has been giving me slightly dirty looks on the school run, I just smile as I did politely prior to the incident (as you do when you pass people on the school run). He reluctantly had to hold open a gate for me the other day as I had DD in pushchair but didn't talk to me. I have a a clear impression that he doesn't like me or my son after the biting incident. I haven't bought up the subject with him as I don't think it would achieve anything and I'm not going to apologise for my son's behaviour as I feel It's DS's job to apologise to Polly which he did in person several times and in writing. And he was punished in school by missing his playtime (not that I think this actually achieves anything)

Now to today. When I picked up Ds I was told that he had hit Polly in the stomach because she was talking in line. When I asked him why he just says he doesn't know why, and got very upset and cried. I didn't leave it and kept on asking why and repeating that "I don't know?" isn't an acceptable answer. I have no idea what to do, he just shuts down and won't talk about it.
We talked through why it was wrong to hit and talked through scenarios, of what other people would have done to solve Polly's chatting (like the teacher) and obviously none of them involved hitting. He's been sent up to his room.

And now I have no idea what to do. DS is a bright boy he really enjoys school and tends to be quite focused in class and works really hard. He seems to find maths and spellings easy has started to really enjoy reading and generally does well in class. So he isn't lashing out out of frustration from struggling with his learning.

He has friends and I would say is popular within the school. So not lonely. He's never lashed out at another child out of the school setting (bar his brother). He doesn't play violent computer games, or watch violent films. I would say the most violent thing he watches would be Ninja Turtle, Tom & Jerry and Totally Spies.
All is well at home DH & I have been together for 10 yrs and are happy so he's not picking up on anything negative going on at home.
He loves his baby sister to bits and is very helpful at home with her. He scraps with his younger brother 5 at times. Which they are both pulled up for. So all in all nothing I can think that would be linked to his violent outbursts.

I am at loss as to how to stop him lashing out at this girl as he is more than aware that his behaviour is wrong and unacceptable. I can't prevent it from happening at school as I am not there to parent him and make sure he makes the right choices. That's down to him and the school. I am now thinking that if common sense and empathy for Polly isn't stopping him maybe fear will?

As Polly's Dad is fuming over the situation would IBU to get ask him to tell off DS (in the presence of a teacher) as I think this might install a bit of fear and get him to stop and think in future or just stay clear of Polly.
As talking it through really isn't working and I'm not going to shout at him because I'm not actually angry just very frustrated.

I have a DS also 7. He is a keen follower of rules and has tried to enforce them. Futile when it comes to another determined 7 yo. Also known to let frustration take over and make poor choices.

We let the school do what they need to do. But DS is equally punished at home: ipad removed; stopping Beavers; withdrawing from a party. The school know this, and appreciate our support. DS has learned actions have real consequences.

It is not for him to enforce the rules, he MUST go and find an adult. If he feels he cannot control a situation school have created a quiet place for him to go and regain his composure, he has a book he likes there to flick through until he feels he can rejoin the group.

I think jealousy may have something to do with it. She was talking to his friend, and he didn't like that. Both times.

Polly is new, struggling to fit in, possibly a bit edgy because of that. Hasn't managed to make friends with the girls, tries to play with the boys and the OP's DS is annoyed because in his mind she is an intruder who is trying to take his friends away.

Instead of punishment I'd try to get him to show empathy for Polly and explain how hard it can be in a new class, where no one wants to be your friend.

Honestly, I'd leave it The school is handling it. You're following up at home. Her father doesn't need to be directly involved with your son.

The child’s physician should be contacted if a child with good verbal skills who is over 3 years of age continues to bite. www.kidsgrowth.com/resources/articledetail.cfm?id=244
I agree you really do need some professional guidance, even a one time consult with your GP, as you do not even know how to discipline your child. I do not mean this in a mean way at all, but you have a lot of excuses. Fact is, he still will be learning reading in school and some children do not even have books at home, and it would not harm his education if you had taken away his books for a week end. How about he is not allowed to watch those programs you mentioned Ninja turtles ect.?

He should know to tell the teacher, not bite.

I am also wondering..You say new..How new as you seem to know Dad already

I asked whether Op was going to approach 'new Polly's' dad. I don't think there was a response....

My dd is younger but has been pushed ....smacked in the face....tripped and pinched until she bruised by a boy in her class. The head ended up calling us. He is still missing play times etc.

As in this situation the attacks have been unprovoked. The last one witnessed by a teacher.

The mother continually just ignores us. I know it winds my DP up that she hasn't acknowledged the situation.

I actually feel sorry for her ds. There seems to be guidance lacking at home.

I think her response has contributed to the fact that if this happens again....we will take action.

Crickey, some of you are utterly obsessed with punishments and taking things away....I was never ever given a punishment as a child, a telling of and a talk, of course, the ocassional shout as well, but none of this "no xxx. for a week".
Neither myself nor my siblings have turned to a life of crime....

I actually agree with the OP re punishments. If exclusion works, as DS hates being excluded, that's clearly the way to punish him effectively.

What I think could end up being a problem is the fact that the OP, to me, seems desperate to make this Polly's fault somehow. Her DS is going to pick up on this and will believe it is Polly's fault. He is the one who bit and hit her and, according to the teachers, both incidents were unprovoked! The OP needs to be absolutely firm in her disapproval of his behaviour and stop looking for justification for it.

Firstly, I think many parents go through something similar - and often see both sides of the coin. I know I have - DS has been both the antagonist and the victim of this type of behaviour.
My suggestions are:

1. You do have to find a punishment. Going to his room isn't a punishment - if he can grab a book and read, it is just chill out time. If you can't remove something he loves, you have to find something else because there have to be consequences for this behaviour - at the moment there aren't. We have removed our DDs books in the past.
2. You have to spell out clearly what will happen if he does this again. He needs to understand that if he bites Polly a third time that he will be facing severe sanctions.
3. You should speak to Polly's parents - briefly - and say you are aware of what is happening, he has been punished, and that you are taking this very seriously. No need to get into a discussion with them, but they do need to know you are addressing this.
4. You need to change your attitude a bit - your son knows what he is doing and knows it is wrong - you are currently giving us (and presumably him) the impression that he is a little angel despite his behaviour. He's not an angel - he is an ordinary child going through the normal process of pushing boundaries. But you will not sort this out if you refuse to accept what is happening and deal with it firmly.

PS - Callooh has nailed it in her post.

middleagedandconfused the school have punished him, why does he need to be punished twice?

OP You seem to be looking for something where there is nothing. Your son misbehaved, that's that. Now what needs to be done is helping him find a way to deal with anger that doesn't involve biting. All you are doing by asking your son for information on the girls behaviour is reinforcing to him that his behaviour might have been somewhat justified.

I went in today to talk to the head about DS's behaviour.
In the office whilst I was waiting I saw Polly's Dad who was in the office to drop something off.

I said hello and then explained that I was waiting to see the head about ds's behaviour, as I was insistent that I didn't want a repeat incident to happen.

His reply was "boys will be boys". Which I replied that
I didn't think that was the case what DS did was completely unacceptable, and that I wanted him to know that I was taking it very seriously and I wanted to work with the school to ensure that Polly won't get hurt again.

So I went to see the head and explained that I was insistent that I obviously don't want Polly to be hurt again and that I have explained this to DS. That DS knows that what he has done is wrong. He is very aware of what is right and wrong. I want to help him make the right decisions and for this not to occur again. That I didn't want my so to become a bully. I said that I was unsure where to go from here, as I told him that I have drummed into DS from an early age what is acceptable behaviour and what is not, despite this he has made two very bad choices whilst at school. I didn't know where I should go from here.

His reply was that he appreciated my concern and was well aware that DS was aware that what he was doing is unacceptable. That he is a very honest boy and has always admitted when he is in the wrong, and has always been forthcoming with information regarding his wrong doings. He said that he isn't the type of child to target other children. He said he does misbehave at times at school (silliness) but he doesn't go out of his way to upset others. He then went on to ensure me that there is something else going on (I didn't mention anything that ds had said to me about Polly in the whole meeting) He said that he is sure that the situation needs unwinding. As he feels that something triggered ds's actions.

He said that he will be working closely with DS today to talk to him and find out if there are any underlying issues, as to him it seems like it's very likely that he's being wound up. If this is the case then they have a responsibility to remove any triggers from DS.

He told me not to worry and that he will make it very clear to DS today that it can not happen again. That there will be very serious consequences at school if it does. He would have to miss 3-7 days of play. He also ensured me that there is nothing wrong with DS that this is likely a hiccup and they will work to remove any triggers and re-enforce coping strategies as well as re-enforcing that retaliation is never acceptable.

I basically made it clear that what ever the underlying issues I was well aware that nothing would justify ds's behaviour and I was horrified when I heard that he bit another child. I made it clear that he has never bit anyone before I was completely shocked by his actions.

He then went on to say that it is much the school's responsibility as mines to ensure that DS doesn't hurt other children whilst in school and they will be monitoring the situation. I thanked him and left.

Irene - the aim here is to stop him doing it again. The first event was only punished by the school - that failed to prevent a recurrence. The parents have to step in now after event number 2 to make sure that it doesn't happen a third time. If it were a single event, I would agree with you and say the school punishment is enough. But it hasn't had any effect.

raisinbread - he sounds like a very sensible head who has a good view of what is happening.

Irene this is what I do not get. Unless the school have asked you to punish him again why would you? A discussion, yes. A clear message it is not acceptable, yes. A clear message of what to do if another child annoys you/pushes you/doesn't behave, yes.

But another punishment after the event? No. You risk making this such a massive, massive thing that the DS is going to a) really resent and hate Polly. b) think that he is being defined by his aggressive behaviour c) getting shitloads of attention for said behaviour

An understanding of what punishment will be should it happen again. And OP you do need to work out what "threat" would work for your DS. But seriously, seriously leave it now.

joy

Ds started having anxiety last year at Birthday parties he went to a friend of his parties who is a year younger and goes to another school. It was in big hall two bouncy castles and about 40 children that he didn't know. He completely freaked out. His friend is year younger than him so most of the kids there were one or two years younger than him. He just became really anxious and desperate to leave but I managed to calm him down as his brother didn't want to leave. But he didn't leave my side the whole time.

A few months later he went to another party in a small village hall we arrived 5 minutes late so the party was already in full swing lots of children (most of his class plus siblings) loud music etc. he completely freaked out and refused to enter the room and became very upset and panicky. So we left. He refused to go to parties full stop for a few month after.

Then I encouraged him to go to one but made sure we were early so that the children built up slowly and it wasn't so overwhelming.

He now isn't that bothered about parties he'll go but it wouldn't be the end of the world if I said you can't go to Peters party because I think to a certain extent he still associates them with feeling anxious.

Polly has been at the school for maybe a month. It's a small school of about 100 children so easy to spot a new parent at pick up drop off.

Did he's anxiety start around the time your DD was born? Just woundering if having a sister might have caused your ds some anxieties

MyFirstName - how many times would you let this happen before you think the parents should punish him?

DD would have been about 3 month thinking back so you may be right. I haven't thought much about it much recently as he hasn't showcased much anxiety.

He sometimes opts out of social situations like day trips or the cinema in favour of staying at home but I thought that was just because he wasn't that bothered but it may be to do with anxiety? He has happily gone out to lots of places like soft play, swimming pools, farm places and always happily chats to other children and comes away with a new friend. So i'm not really sure. He's never said to me I don't want to do this today because It makes me feel panicky but I don't know if he'd be able verbalise that he felt anxious.

Until the panic attack last week I hadn't really thought about it much.

OP, is your DS getting help for his anxiety? Is he on medication for it?

It sounds like he might have anxiety, especially after his reaction after the incident with polly. I suffer with anxiety, it's not nice not sure if HV works with children up to his age, if so perhaps speak to your HV or GP for some advice to help him with his anxieties

No Decaf,

To be honest I thought we have mostly worked through the party thing and to date that was the only real thing I had witnessed him showcase anxiety towards. He generally is fine in large groups, is confident, happy to go to new places. Will opt to approach another child and make friends. He has been to several parties since and never had an extreme reaction again similar to the one where we actually left the party. He leaves happy and chatty and I can tell he's had a good time.

The panic attack at school is the second full blown one he's had so I didn't see it as being an ongoing thing for him as most of the time doesn't display anxious behaviour. But now i'm thinking that I should maybe explore the issue further.