To get the Dad of the girl DS bit to tell him off?

[RaisinBread]

Name change as this is probably quite obvious who I am with the details that will follow but have been on MN for 7 years.

I'm at my whits end with DS (age 7) and I have no idea how to punish him for this behaviour. Backstory-

There is a new girl in his class he has a small class of just over 20 with about 15 boys. Now for the second time in just over two weeks he has been violent towards this girl. The first time I was pulled over at collection because the new girl, lets call her Polly had shoved ds (Polly denies this) So Ds bit her hand. He has never bit anyone before in his life. After the incident the teacher said he had a panic attack and needed a lot of calming down. I suspect I think he knew he had done something horrendous and didn't know how to cope with it. The teacher told me that Polly's Dad was extremely angry.

When we got home I talked through why it was wrong, talked through reversed situations asked how would have felt had it been him that had been bit, if someone else had bit his little sister or me etc. etc. We talked through what would have been the right decision after the shove (telling a teacher). He was told that the behaviour was absolutely unacceptable and that I was very angry and upset. He was then sent up to his room until dinner, made a sorry card for Polly and then had a bath and was told to go to bed. I didn't scream or shout at him just had stern words and made it clear that it was to never happen again.

Now ever since the biting Polly's Dad has been giving me slightly dirty looks on the school run, I just smile as I did politely prior to the incident (as you do when you pass people on the school run). He reluctantly had to hold open a gate for me the other day as I had DD in pushchair but didn't talk to me. I have a a clear impression that he doesn't like me or my son after the biting incident. I haven't bought up the subject with him as I don't think it would achieve anything and I'm not going to apologise for my son's behaviour as I feel It's DS's job to apologise to Polly which he did in person several times and in writing. And he was punished in school by missing his playtime (not that I think this actually achieves anything)

Now to today. When I picked up Ds I was told that he had hit Polly in the stomach because she was talking in line. When I asked him why he just says he doesn't know why, and got very upset and cried. I didn't leave it and kept on asking why and repeating that "I don't know?" isn't an acceptable answer. I have no idea what to do, he just shuts down and won't talk about it.
We talked through why it was wrong to hit and talked through scenarios, of what other people would have done to solve Polly's chatting (like the teacher) and obviously none of them involved hitting. He's been sent up to his room.

And now I have no idea what to do. DS is a bright boy he really enjoys school and tends to be quite focused in class and works really hard. He seems to find maths and spellings easy has started to really enjoy reading and generally does well in class. So he isn't lashing out out of frustration from struggling with his learning.

He has friends and I would say is popular within the school. So not lonely. He's never lashed out at another child out of the school setting (bar his brother). He doesn't play violent computer games, or watch violent films. I would say the most violent thing he watches would be Ninja Turtle, Tom & Jerry and Totally Spies.
All is well at home DH & I have been together for 10 yrs and are happy so he's not picking up on anything negative going on at home.
He loves his baby sister to bits and is very helpful at home with her. He scraps with his younger brother 5 at times. Which they are both pulled up for. So all in all nothing I can think that would be linked to his violent outbursts.

I am at loss as to how to stop him lashing out at this girl as he is more than aware that his behaviour is wrong and unacceptable. I can't prevent it from happening at school as I am not there to parent him and make sure he makes the right choices. That's down to him and the school. I am now thinking that if common sense and empathy for Polly isn't stopping him maybe fear will?

As Polly's Dad is fuming over the situation would IBU to get ask him to tell off DS (in the presence of a teacher) as I think this might install a bit of fear and get him to stop and think in future or just stay clear of Polly.
As talking it through really isn't working and I'm not going to shout at him because I'm not actually angry just very frustrated.

I don't think scaring a child into behaving well is the same as teaching them to behave well. I admit I could be wrong. Being shouted at by any adult is pretty horrid for a child, let alone by an adult who has already got a stick up their arse about you. Don't do it, please.

Consequences might not seem as though they're working, but they do send a message. DS1 is 9 and loves reading, so if sent to his room for bad behaviour it's not a punishment. He lost tv for a week a while back (for terrible, terrible behaviour, not something I did lightly) and we found ways around it for DS2; DS1 would sit in the kitchen with me while I made tea and DS2 had cartoons, or DS2 watched something on an iPad. It's brutal but tv removal really got the message home.

Will you acknowledge the parent?

He's in First school.

reception to year 4 so he's bang in the middle really being a year 2

We have first, middle, and high schools here.

I agree with frumpet he's been punished and I think piling on further punishments could be counterproductive. Be very clear about how unacceptable his behaviour was and that any further incidents will lead to further sanctions but model kindness and notice and comment on good behaviour. He sound like a very stressed little boy and I can appreciate how stressful for you this is, you've obviously been thinking about it a lot and I don't think these incidents are any indication of poor parenting.

RaisinBread - there is no need to shout at him or even "punish" him. For long boring reasons I won't go into DS does not respond well to rewards and punishment and we (the school and I) have managed his behaviour quite effectively.

Read my earlier post.

I relied on school punishments as being enough but was absolutely adamant in my disapproval with him and supportive of the school. I did not question him about reasons. Reasons are irrelevant you need to stop the behaviour and pretty sharpish.

You are looking for understanding and this is what you need to understand - your child hit another child.

But he needs a consequence for his actions. Yes he's been punished at school, but he needs something at home to show him he's actions were inappropriate.

Have you spoken to your DH? What does he think should be a consequence?

I had a situation where my dd really disliked this boy in her class. She was horrible to him! Basically she was jealous that he liked her sister more.

I talked to the mother and asked her to inform me of any incidents straight away because I wanted to nip it in the bud. As a result of this she was nice to me and we dealt with it together. You should never have ignored the situation with the dad, you should have spoke to him.

My dd never hit the child but her behaviour was not great and she lost a lot of privileges until she sorted it out, after the first time talking to her did not work.

At aged 7 I would have given one warning and then there would have been more consequences the second time. Every child has a currency, you just need to find it. (Hate to quote Dr Phil).

You are spending too much time trying to analyse why he did what he did and trying to put some blame onto Polly. Polly's actions (if there were any) does not change what your son did and your focus should only be on that right now.

For now I would drop it completely. Apologise to the dad and then move on. If it happens again then you are going to need to find a punishment that works.

Wow, how much more is poor little Polly going to suffer before you start properly parenting your child? So you fail to apologize to the victim's father for your DS's appalling behavior but expect that same father to deal with your son? Yes - YABU

You and your DH need to take responsibility and find an effective punishment before this escalates. Better to take away pens and books than have your child excluded from school...

FWIW we use "natural consequences" than than punishments and rewards and it works very well if you have the kind of child who is not motivated by punishments or rewards.

So for example - the natural consequence of your child hitting someone again is that he will not be allowed to... whatever the school next step punishment is.

Also worth a discussion about how is trying to be the boss of this girl (enforcing the rules himself) he made himself the problem instead of her which isn't very smart. He is not the boss of anyone. Worth re-iterating to a child who is very rule conscious.

The only reason I want to understand it is because it was out of character.
But like other posters have said maybe he is just a bully who doesn't like Polly?

But even with that argument bullies don't just decide to be a bully overnight there is normally something that triggers that behaviour. So if he's angry enough to bite someone he needs some help. But the fact that he had a panic attack after doesn't make me think he did it because he enjoys inflicting pain on others.

Anyhow like I said upthread I've already decided what i'll do.

So what happens when your child is naughty at home.Say he bit his sibling, what would you do?
You won't shout at him, you won't take his things away, your just seem to rely on cajoling him to 'make better choices'

Thanks Kew I appreciate your input.

Irene I do shout at him, if there is something that I have witnessed, they go on the naughty step, then he have to apologise to his brother or visaversa.

I do shout but I'm not an intimidating person, so I can shout but it doesn't scare him but more shows him that i'm frustrated/angered by his behaviour. But he isn't scared by me. He really doesn't enjoy being excluded. So sitting on the step or being on his room works well.

A good punishment might be to write an essay about why it is wrong to hit and how he should behave when he perceives that someone has wronged him.

I will not take away books Ds was behind in his reading for two years and hated it, would not read at all at home on many occasions because he found it so frustrating, now that he enjoys it and is actually where he should be for his age it will not be used as a punishment.

The da has apologised, he has been punished. He doesn't need punishing again. He has been. He knows that hitting and biting is wrong.

Now his reaction to things needs to be rectified. Part of that process is finding out why he teated as he did.

No one is justifying the behaviour. I've just been on phone to friend if mine who's a teacher. Read her the and asked for her thoughts.

Her first response was - he's been punished why does the parent want to punish him further. Then she asked what had caused him to behave out of character. When I said it was unknown except it was known the girl pushed him before the bite and then denied it. Today was no physical provocation it was a reaction to the girl talking when she shouldn't be. Friend then said serious investigation needs to be made into the dynamics of the relationship between these 2 children. There's always a route cause to change in behaviour.

Hmm. My DD was "Polly" at about the same age. A boy in her class bit her on the hand. He was made to apologise. DD2 (and we) accepted it, and moved on. Two weeks later he bit her on the shoulder. Only, he didn't just bite her on the shoulder, he was hanging on by his teeth. The teacher had to physically remove him, and DD2 had to go to A & E. She still has the scar.

The boy's parents were like you, OP. Their son wasn't "difficult" or "nasty." The teacher said otherwise - both times the attack was completely unprovoked - when he bit her on the shoulder, she was hanging up her coat.

The school asked us what we wanted to do about it. I asked if the boy could be removed - they clearly couldn't keep DD2 safe in his company, and he wasn't able to behave. The headmaster reluctantly agreed. I was waiting outside his office when he had the boy's parents in with him, and they were still protesting his innocence, and it all being out of character. And no word of apology to us or DD2 from the parents about what had happened.

I have just read the thread..

I would probably be looking if there was more to this story if it is so out of character..

However... My DS (7) has been told when he has complained about someone else s behavior at school.. You can't change someone else s behavior only your own... I tell him to focus on his own behaviour.

I can also say with my DS removing stuff doesn't bother him. You do have to find that punishment that bothers them..whether it is loss of pocket money..The ultimate for my DS is he doesn't go to Beavers.. It has only ever happened once.

I think it is very important that he starts looking at his own behaviour and how he manages his anger.

I also tell my DS you can't dontrol others behaviour - but you can control your reactions to it.

That doesn't mean I don't think there are situations where a young child will lose control - we are all human and can only take so much. We are not infallible. And if they are losing control investigation into why they are needs to be carried out.

If this boy is just walking up and hurting children he does have a problem - but he still needs support to get over it. If he's reacting to other a behaviour - he has a problem and needs support to get over it whilst school work towards removing the trigger.

Callooh - yes, he was. If he hadn't been, we would have moved DD2.

How often does he have panic attacks?

Haven't read all the comments.
Don't want to make Polly look evil, but what if she said to your DS "your mum is this and this"? Do you think that might be a reason to react so strongly and close down when talking to you?
Just a random guess