to think my friend's children should go to church?

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Church is very important to my friend she is employed by them and does loads of voluntary stuff on top. There's not much she would prioritise over being in church on a Sunday morning.

Her Dc are now teens but haven't been to church since they were around 7/8. They didn't want to and although she would have liked them to keep going occasionally, she said it was their choice. Her DH is not a church goer.

Most of the time she's fine with this but there are certain occasions when she would badly like them to be there. Her birthday, Christmas.... and Mother's Day.

The church makes a big fuss of mother's day and she runs several children's groups so is very much one of the organisers for this. She has never managed to persuade her children to participate and has told me that she won't be going to church next Sunday because it makes her so sad when everyone else is being given flowers (provided by the church) by their children and hers aren't there. Another child will always present her with flowers, so she's not without but she is very upset by her own children not being there.

AIBU to think that for this day only, her DH should put his foot down and tell his sons they need to go because it will make their mum happy?

Entirely Mehitabel and that includes teenagers.

Its a bit tight of them not to go op, if its only a few times a year. If it was so important to my mum I would have gone. Even when I was a teen I would have done that for her.

Of course it does Andrewfgg -if you have read the whole thread you would see that is what I am saying! We seem to have got away from OP -I have stated several times that she is being totally unreasonable.

That was your free choice though DancingDinosaur-it wasn't your mother putting on emotional blackmail and your father putting his foot down.
I would like my family to come to church with me-especially at Christmas-but I respect that they don't and would hate them to come because they thought they were pleasing me.

Mehitabel I was not disagreeing with you! You know who I was disagreeing with, and it's not just the OP who seems to have disappeared.

Narrow minded? Could that be said to apply to those who rely on faith rather than evedence, do you think?

I wouldn't use the f'ictional character' term as I think it's provocative although not inaccurate.

In aspiring to be a rational free thinker I am open to the idea of there being a god or gods if someone was able to show me the evidence. That hasn't happened yet.

I wouldn't hate that. I'd feel privileged that they wanted to do that for me. I think its sad that ops children can't do that for her when it clearly means so much. Theres no harm in doing things for our family that we don't want to do much, but we do it anyway because we love them. I do things for my mum because it makes her happy, and thats more important than me taking half an hour out of my life to do something i'm not really into. Sad that so many don't feel the same way.

Sad but to be respected.
Sorry Andrew I get so used to people thinking a child is too young to think for themselves. I was talking about the person who made the remark Marshy.
I actually prefer not to have evidence.
We shall find out on death-or their won't be anything- so either way it doesn't matter!

Sorry-I meant either way it won't matter. It will either be the next great adventure or it will be the end. If it is the end we won't know it is the end!

Not sure the second attempt was any clearer!

As the op disappeared pages ago, we are having to make lots of assumptions in pondering this.

If these are 2 teens who have a basic belief in god but in some way can't be bothered to go to church on a special.day for their mum then imo it's not unreasonable to see if they would be willing to reconsider that.

If on the other hand they have thought about it and have decided that God and church does not fit with their principles and beliefs then it would be wrong to try to persuade them to go, imo.

I am an atheist (surprise!) as are my teens and in all honesty I would be disappointed if my teens developed a belief in god. It could happen - they are out in the world, subject to many influences and making their own decisions. If they started going to church I would certainly have a conversation with them about it, but it's up to them. I wouldn't and couldn't stop them. Neither should these teens be required to do something they don't feel is right for them.

I don't think that is a narrow minded position.

I said all that on or about page 3....

Of course you don't have to wash the team kit. Of course you don't have to fund raise for the team. You don't have to do quite a lot of this; it's not part and parcel of 'family life'. I support my children's activities but not to the extent where they take over my life.

Of course doing those things is not taking 'over my life' - I never implied that at all, my point is that, it is just nice to do something for someone else when you are part of a family. Just like going to a church service on a day that has significance for their mother is not 'taking over' the teenagers' lives.

Mehitabel - that's an interesting point of view and one I've not heard before. It would be good to be able to discuss with you face to face over a cup.of tea

Sadly as it stands I can't be with you on that. People with belief often seem to devote a lot of energy supporting that belief. I wouldn't be prepared to do that on the off chance it mght be true despite the lack of evidence. I have other uses for my precious energy.

Ragwort did you read my post of 19.40 at all?

Yes Marshy - I agree that we need to know more about the reasons why these teens don't want to go to Church. Is it because they can't be bothered or is it because they have thought deeply about their reasons for not going to church? I have a teen, who does believe in God, but would probably much rather have a lie in than go to Church on Christmas Day - but he comes with DH and I because that has been our Christmas routine since we got together.

It is interesting that you say you would be disappointed if your teens developed a belief in god - I mentioned this before on this thread but a friend was raised by a very 'strict' athiest, kept out of RE and assemblies at school - now she is the most devout person I know.

Anyway, this discussion seems to be going round & round in circles now.

Many people (mainly the christians perhaps) don't seem to understand why some people would find going along to church a really excruciatingly uncomfortable experience.

I was once forced to go as a teen (for a family one off event) and was shocked. I found a lot of the standard phrases really sad - all the we are not worthy stuff. I found the praying shocking too - as i hadnt realised grown ups still believed like that. I was a pretty swotty and well behaved girl and was really conflicted between not disrupting proceedings and not being forced to state and chant (what for me were lies). I cringe now remembering it.

I spent some time in nigeria where church services were a BIG thing for the families we were staying in. I didnt really want to go but in the end was persuaded by the rest of the group (and listened to the preacher telling them not to take medicines but pray instead, and saw the villagers persuaded to "donate" half their income to the pastor as the donation amounts were all read out publically. There was also a lot of subordination of women related to coming from adam's rib).

When we visited a different area with more animalist practices the very ones who were most vocal on why i should go to church refused to take part in the ceremonies there, as it was counter to their beliefs! Yet i was supposed to cover my head as an inferior (woman) and go along with all their stuff.

Going to church for a principled rejector of religion is not like a slightly boring trip to a garden centre or manor house. It is disturbing like watching a violent film or supporting an oppostion political party or watching your loved ones do something that makes you cringe.

Yes if you grew up going to church it might seem normal, but from the outside looking in all the chanting and drinking blood and praying can look pretty strange. Then the politics is objectionable too if any other national organisation had allowed women to work there - just not in senior roles (vis bishops) - they would have been taken to court. Not to mention the history.

Not all innocent C of E tea and cake.

With respect double the services you describe in Nigeria are not comparable to CofE mothers day give your mum a posy services. I'm actually not religious, I do find the bog standard church services incredibly easy not to engage with. It just seems like such a lot of hand wringing over a couple of teens taking an hour out of their time to do something with their mum, on mothers day.

Ragwort thanks for your response - I appreciate it.

Your Christmas day routine seems entirely appropriate to me. And if a similar set of circumstances exists in the op's household then I really hope her teens make the effort to go.

I would call myself a confirmed atheist not a strict one. My teens went to the local c of e primary when they were little, they did brownies and beavers, both of which meant going to church sometimes. They have gradually come to their own conclusions about what they believe and I'm sure me and my atheist dh have been influential in that. It may change and if it does I will struggle with that but I won't put pressure on them to do something they don't want to do.

I agree theend. Let's just quit with the hand wringing and agree the teens should be allowed to stay at home

1944girl you have a lot of catching up to do!

You sound lovely and that is one of the most sensible posts I have read on this thread and I've been reading it for far too long

No marshy make the lazy sods get up and do something, if bloomin church is too damaging for them I can always think of something that would actually be useful!

The OP's friend does not live in a tekonarchal household, if she did she would not have been crying on the OP's shoulder, she simply would have told them that they were going. The family is a system and for it to work harmoniously, it's members need to communicate openly and honestly. But 6/10 Andrew for patriarchal bullshit dressed up as something else.

People seem determined to be argumentative here. Chill the fuck out people!