to think my friend's children should go to church?

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Church is very important to my friend she is employed by them and does loads of voluntary stuff on top. There's not much she would prioritise over being in church on a Sunday morning.

Her Dc are now teens but haven't been to church since they were around 7/8. They didn't want to and although she would have liked them to keep going occasionally, she said it was their choice. Her DH is not a church goer.

Most of the time she's fine with this but there are certain occasions when she would badly like them to be there. Her birthday, Christmas.... and Mother's Day.

The church makes a big fuss of mother's day and she runs several children's groups so is very much one of the organisers for this. She has never managed to persuade her children to participate and has told me that she won't be going to church next Sunday because it makes her so sad when everyone else is being given flowers (provided by the church) by their children and hers aren't there. Another child will always present her with flowers, so she's not without but she is very upset by her own children not being there.

AIBU to think that for this day only, her DH should put his foot down and tell his sons they need to go because it will make their mum happy?

The issue is "should go" vs "it would be nice if they did".

One indicates an obligation on their part, the other none whatsoever other than "being nice" - and that is a personal choice.

No one should ever, ever be "obliged" to set food in a church, mosque or synagogue for any other reason than personal choice. If I (for example) go to a Christening and consider it no big deal, that's up to me.

As it happens, I never go to christenings. I object to them very strongly, regardless of who is being christened.

But I go to weddings & funerals and consider it no big deal.

But that is up to me. And it is also up to these teen boys whether they choose to honour their mother in the religious way she wants.

Hak, no one has suggested that she emotionally blackmail her children.

Andrew said that it is ok to ask for something if it benefits the children or the whole family, but for her to ask for something for herself is emotional blackmail. No it's not.

It is patriarchal bullshit that a woman should be silent regarding her own happiness and only ask for things if they benefit the whole family. This message is so implicit and insidious in our patriarchal society that I spend endless hours helping women to understand that it is ok to ask for what you want.

So when I come on here and see a man describe it as emotional blackmail I'm going to challenge it and call it out for the patriarchal bullshit that it is. It falls under Know Your Privilege.

BTW, no one has suggested the OP's friend emotionally blackmail her family.

If you know that a person does not want, on grounds of principle, to take part in a religious ceremony but still ask them to do it "because it would make me happy" then that is emotional blackmail,nregardless of the gender of the person doing it.

The attitude that "Oh, a little bit of Christiantiy doesn't do any harm" is one that atheists often come up against. And it can make life very difficult. Not something that Christians, from their position of privilege can understand.

But I agree that the attitude that women shouldn't ask for what they want stinks. I just don't think that's what we are talking about here.

But we don't know if they don't want to take part because of a principled stance or because they can't be bothered. The OP hasn't told us.

Maybe they don't want to waste their time in a church because they have spent so much of their lives coming second to their mum's imaginary friend and all the associated bullshit. Maybe they are not prepared to 'make their mum happy' because she's been a cow to them, forever banging on about Jeeezus and spoiling their fun. Religious parents can be a serious PITA to grow up with, especially if they are the officious, busybodying, fun-sponge type.
It's not your business, anyway.

No they should not. They are teenagers. Surely she has told them about God and religion and they have decided it's not for them Sorry your friend is upset, but she is upset because her children are exercising their free will instead of bowing to her beliefs.

It's emotional blackmail because she is a parent asking what she should not expect from teens and trying to take them on a guilt trip if they don't want to - not because she's a mother doing that.

Know your Privilege indeed - the privilege which many parents think they have. Parents of both genders.

The problem here is not patriarchy. Or matriarchy. It's tekonarchy if I remember my A-Level Greek correctly. Rule by parents. Or rather misrule by parents. Those of us with grown-up DCs know how difficult it is to let go, but when it comes to teens and religious observance, the time has well and truly come. Whether you are mother or father; whether they are sons or daughters.

And it doesn't matter whether they are principled or can't be be arsed or have other things to do on a Sunday morning (perhaps be with their non-churchgoing father?) - it's their choice. And parents must respect it without question.

I would call it emotional blackmail.
Her DH could suggest that they do something for Mothering Sunday - get some flowers, cook the lunch and then she can go to church on her own and get presented with some flowers. It isn't something that teens are likely to want to do if they are in church anyway.

Is there an equivalent in Greek of 'rule by children'? .

If, as does happen, my DS asks me to drive him endlessly around the country for sports games, wash the team kit, fund raise for the team events etc etc - when I would much rather be doing my own thing - is this seen as 'emotional blackmail' or is it just part and parcel of family life?

And why do childrens' wants have to trump parents wants - or does this argument only apply to religious observance?

Paidarchy, I would guess.

The emotional blackmail arises because parents have all the power in their hands and it should not be misused. And I see pressing children, beyond a certain age, to do anything so personal as attend religious observances when they don't want to as an abuse of that power.

What that age is will differ from child to child (and according to whether there is anyone to look after them if they need it) but teens are of that age.

I hope that if the mother is given a card and some flowers/chocolates on Sunday, that she is gracious enough to accept them with a smile, and perhaps takes the time to reflect how lucky she is to have her two boys, rather than sulking because they declined to give her the flowers in public in the church.

If, as does happen, my DS asks me to drive him endlessly around the country for sports games, wash the team kit, fund raise for the team events etc etc - when I would much rather be doing my own thing - is this seen as 'emotional blackmail' or is it just part and parcel of family life?

If he was crying because you weren't making a sufficiently public display of your love for him in the correct manner, you having explained why you had a valid reason why you thought he should wash his own kit/you couldn't take him to a particular match yes, it would be emotional blackmail.

Although I suspect that in a child you might call it having a tantrum or throwing a strop.

OP doesn't seem to have mentioned anywhere what the boys might be doing on Mothers Day otherwise. If they were planning on ignoring their mother, she'd probably be entitled to be upset - though there's a case for saying that it's purely a commercial construct anyway. But if the reality is that they will see her, send her cards, give her flowers or whatever, then she's getting upset purely because they're not making a public display in the venue she chooses to go to; and that's fairly ridiculous.

I find it interesting thwt people are completely ignoring the fact that she doesn't want her children just to attend- she wants them to take part in a religious service. Now it could be that her kids are just lazy arsed teens, but it could also be that they have a principled objection to taking part in a church service. Do people think they should set their own principles aside to please their mother?

I don't Hakluyt- which is why I said it was emotional blackmail. They should be true to their own beliefs. I would love it if my children came to church with me at Christmas but I respect that they don't and am glad they don't do it to please me - the wrong reason. DS is not getting married in church- it would be hypocritical to do so. (I expect OP mother will be vastly upset if her children don't- unless she has started to treat them as adults by then )
I don't really understand it anyway as the flowers in church are really for the small children,with extras being given to teens and adults to give to their mothers. By teens I would expect them to prefer to arrange their own presents rather than have the embarrassment of going to the front in church.

Luckily the DH is sensible enough not to 'put his foot down'.
Personally if I was the teen being forced I would get my own flowers, present before church, and then sit tight in the service- to make my point if I wasn't listened to.

It is patriarchal bullshit that a woman should be silent regarding her own happiness and only ask for things if they benefit the whole family. This message is so implicit and insidious in our patriarchal society that I spend endless hours helping women to understand that it is ok to ask for what you want.

Who the fuck is saying that women should only ask for things if they benefit the 'whole family'? I'm certainly not. I am a stroppy cow. But I also accept I am raising two stroppy calves who are entitled to say no if I start pulling some "come to church to prove you love me" number.

And frankly since when did being given flowers in church to prove your reproductive worth become a grand bloody feminist gesture anyway? Less reverence for Mothers and more respect for Women would be a damn good thing IMO.

Actually Hakluyt lots of posters have commented on exactly that fact.

"Actually Hakluyt lots of posters have commented on exactly that fact."

I don't think anyone in the "they should go to please their mother" camp has addressed it..........

But you think, "they should go to please their mother", Hakluyt if it's just laziness stopping them. So you are half in that camp yourself.

Maybe OP hasn't taken on board that they are growing up. I find it hard to imagine any teenagers wanting to queue up with 5 yr olds to be given flowers to then trot back and hand to mother. You probably need to get into 20s to be happy to do it again. (Aside from the fact that they have rejected going to church)

If, as does happen, my DS asks me to drive him endlessly around the country for sports games, wash the team kit, fund raise for the team events etc etc - when I would much rather be doing my own thing - is this seen as 'emotional blackmail' or is it just part and parcel of family life?

Of course you don't have to wash the team kit. Of course you don't have to fund raise for the team. You don't have to do quite a lot of this; it's not part and parcel of 'family life'. I support my children's activities but not to the extent where they take over my life.

I think there are people on here who cannot accept that a teenager can hold a principled position which is different from one their parent holds. A common failing among people of faith!

Ha people get so riled about this! My DM is religious took us all along to church/Sunday school all through our childhoods, weirdly enough none of us hate her for it, feel violated or brainwashed or really have any strong opinions either way. We all respect her and her beliefs though. I went to church on certain days if I thought she'd appreciate it, in the same way I might make her a cup of tea if she fancied one. You don't become Indoctrinated by stepping foot inside a church ffs. What's wrong with putting yourself out occasionally for some one, just because you love them.

I think it's more that they cannot see why the teenager would not be willing to just play nice and go along with it for his mum's sake.

Which you sort of agree with, up to a point.

But yes...in general....faithful people do often struggle with allowing their children true freedom of thought. There may also be an element of that here too.